Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-06-2016, 23:37   #91
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,807
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
.....For the "in-whatever", I use my staysail sheet with a low friction eye soft shackled (using one of your generation 1 soft shackles -- thanks again for that)
It looks like you have mastered making Evans' Improved Soft Shackle. It is dramatically better than the version I sent in terms of strength and handling and looks too I think - I don't like the stumpy tail sticking out of the diamond stopper at all, particularly since I am too conservative to cut it short. If you would like to try a soft shackle with Button I am happy to send one over.

SWL
__________________

__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 01:09   #92
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
It looks like you have mastered making Evans' Improved Soft Shackle.

SWL
How's that new alloy bucket coming along?
__________________

__________________
50ftmoneypit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 02:00   #93
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,807
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50ftmoneypit View Post
How's that new alloy bucket coming along?
We didn't get our fix this week. The regular photos we have been so kindly receiving are only a day "late", so my pupils haven't started dilating yet .

We will be seeing 3D images of the interior soon.

An ad for our current boat went up on Yachtworld yesterday. Bittersweet having our last summer on board.

SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 06:03   #94
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,726
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
It looks like you have mastered making Evans' Improved Soft Shackle. . .
Nothing really to master -- just splice a couple of tight loops (ball point pen time) and loop it inside itself twice and Bob's your mother's brother. It's dead simple, which means it's just right for my meager ropework talents. That's important because it means any average Popeye can do it. Kudos to you and Evans for all the development work, testing etc. -- a great gift to sailors everywhere

Now if I can only decide on an optimum approach for the strops . . .
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 06:24   #95
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,726
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Excellent feedback in his post. Many thanks. I was aware of these threads, but for me it was put into the "sort it out later" category. I need to go and read those threads properly and draw it out and think about it.

I actually have excess time on my hands today for the very first time in about 8 months. I was going to make a few soft shackles now that I have more dyneema (no decent ones left) but this is a good task to occupy myself with instead..
What is depicted in those threads is my beta test version. I'll post photos of the final system as soon as I get the new strops made up.

Basically what I have is the main up-down f*****r (or more politely, "twing") on the rail on what is now a strong through-bolted pad-eye. The strops will be shorter than the forward one depicted.

Then an inf***r, err inhauler with your shackle which adjusts the inboard-outboard angle of the sheet lead.

So with no in-hauling, the sheet lead is rather outboard which is right for anything off about 50 AWA. From about 50 AWA you start playing the in-hauler to adjust the size of the slot and the angle of attack of the jib. It works a bit like your traveler.


I don't know how your present boat is rigged, and I don't know what kind of traveler you have, but if it's not easily adjustable from the cockpit under load, I suggest making that a top priority on the new boat together with easily adjustable from the cockpit sheet leads. I grew up on boats where you had to luff up and crawl out, pull up a pin to change the jib car position, and likewise with the traveler, and you learn to trim around that. But when you have these controls, you trim differently and far better. Traveler position and sheet lead angle become primary controls. Pardon me if you've long ago been through this and know all this already.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 07:07   #96
Registered User
 
boat_alexandra's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Masachusetts
Boat: bristol 27
Posts: 2,802
Re: My First Soft Shackle

This is an interesting thread as I have been using soft shackles for attaching jib sheets as well as for making hanks for 6 years now.

For hanks, I take 18 inches of dyneema and put an eye splice with no space in one end, and tie a stopper knot in the other end. This goes through the grommet in the sail, and you can work the splice open and slide the knot through. If the hank is make correctly it won't come off, but it's a little more trouble than a bronze hank. My forestay is dyneema.
__________________
boat_alexandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 07:57   #97
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,807
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Now if I can only decide on an optimum approach for the strops . . .
Dockhead, I have just made my first soft shackle for the season and I made an unsecured dyneema loop to help pretension it on the winch (I used a metre of 6mm Dyneema for the loop).

So I had a loop left to experiment with.
I did as Evans suggested and simply wound it around, doubling the loop up. This would have about 4 x the strength of the line ie around 15,600 kg (close to a single loop of 9mm that ends up around 800 mm long). It is 200mm long from tip to toe.

This took just a few minutes to make. I bound it very lightly with 3 mm line just to stop the ring escaping. As easy as doing up or undoing a corset .
I just buried the start, wound the end around the binding then around the ring itself, tied a few half hitches and buried the end. I left it loosish so the dyneema could equalise under load.

Dead easy, strong, short, no throat angle to worry about and the ring can't fall out :



Not nearly as gorgeous as Giancarlo's work, but easy on the eye and quick to make.

SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 08:27   #98
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,807
Re: My First Soft Shackle

If you want to avoid the soft shackle then pass the loop through the pad eye then pop the ends over the low friction ring and bind it in using the same system as above. It would end up looking identical to the above photo, but secured on the pad eye.

The best method for the strop depends entirely on how long the strop can be.

SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 08:42   #99
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Guys,

I love these discussions, but have you looked at the rated MBL of those friction rings compared to the strength of the dyneema? The dyneema generally is so much stronger than the eyes are that maximizing the dyneema strength is almost useless.

Long before the dyneema breaks something else in the system is going to snap anyway, like the deck hardware. Since there are other issues with stepping down in line size (abrasion, and uv damage) strength gains are illusionary at best. Remember the rings themselves are only anodized aluminium and are by far the weak point in the system.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 08:55   #100
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,807
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Guys,

I love these discussions, but have you looked at the rated MBL of those friction rings compared to the strength of the dyneema? The dyneema generally is so much stronger than the eyes are that maximizing the dyneema strength is almost useless.

Long before the dyneema breaks something else in the system is going to snap anyway, like the deck hardware. Since there are other issues with stepping down in line size (abrasion, and uv damage) strength gains are illusionary at best. Remember the rings themselves are only anodized aluminium and are by far the weak point in the system.
The working load of that one is listed as 5000 kg. I presume that is SWL.
I guess it would roughly match a 6mm Dyneema loop doubled up ("average strength" probably around 15,000 kg?).

The sizes of rings and diameter of Dyneema should just be matched to the task as you usually would with conventional blocks and lines.

SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 09:32   #101
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
As easy as doing up or undoing a corset .
nice . . .

but certainly not as exciting as undoing a corset
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 09:49   #102
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,807
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Did you give up the idea you were working on earlier, based on the setup I ended up with for sheet leads for my blade jib?

There were a couple of threads about it:

Dyneema Loops/Blocks as an Alternative to a Jib Car

jib car eliminator

Tracks for Blade Jib


It sounds like you are now thinking about an old fashioned manual track after all, just with a strop and ring instead of a normal block? Or did I read you wrong there?

If so, don't do it! The ability to regulate sheeting angle from the cockpit is essential to decent sail trim. Having to luff up and crawl out to the side decks every time you want to adjust sheeting angle -- like on my previous boat -- is something you will never go back to, if you've ever tried remote control jib cars or any other system which allows you to do it from the cockpit.

My system is similar to the Pogo system Evans mentioned, but for a big boat it gives triple purchase. With the low friction eyes this gives incredibly smooth and easy regulation of the huge loads involved -- it's a revelation. The only downside is that this degree of purchase requires very long control lines, but they are only 10mm so it's not in practice really a problem.

I have a large low friction eye spliced to the end of the control line, through which the sheet goes. The control line is looped through one of the strop-eyes, then back through the large eye at the end, then down through the second strop-eye, and from there through stanchion blocks to a turning block at the quarter, and back to the cockpit.

I'm using a clutch on the rail, and this is the key flaw in my system -- a winch is occupied with this line unless I'm willing to crawl out to the rail to open and close the clutch. You should have a clutch within easy reach.


The purchase is so powerful that you don't even need to slack the sheet to adjust it, like you do with a regular towable car.

And the range of adjustment is huge -- more than any normal car and track. So the one setup, with one set of padeyes, would work for headsails of different sizes.

Fine adjustment of sheeting angle is really extraordinarily useful for good sail trim. It's a primary control.

You don't want the strops to be too short or you won't be able to work the third dimension -- hauling inboard and outboard, which is also extraordinarily useful. I believe in Antipodea, the racers call these "inf**kers" and "outf**kers". For the "in-whatever", I use my staysail sheet with a low friction eye soft shackled (using one of your generation 1 soft shackles -- thanks again for that) on. So using the staysail sheet I can pull the jib sheet lead inboard. The longish strops for the main part of the sheet lead then tilt inboard.

It is truly brilliant in operation, a great leap forward in sail control. I'd like to rip out my tracks and set up a similar system for my overlapping yankee.

Note that using the inhauler there will be a fair good bit of angle on the strops of the main lead, which magnifies the load on the system -- so you have to be sure that the whole system is strong enough. For you with welded on padeyes that won't be a problem, but I spent a lot of money this year upgrading my padeyes after ripping out a few sets of them last year.

The strops themselves carry less load due to the purchase involved.

The low friction eyes have less friction than regular blocks, and they have far less "stiction" -- I don't know how to describe it -- resistance to getting moving in the first place. So a multiple purchase tackle is far smoother than one made with regular blocks. It is really a revelation.

Inboard-outboard control of the sheet lead also has a huge effect on sail trim. Regulating the size of the slot upwind has a big effect on air circulation and interaction between jib and main. Also the effect is similar to using the traveler on the main -- fine adjustment of angle of attack of the jib. Going back to the regular car system for my yankee (Lewmar Size 3 towable cars) feels like losing my traveler, or something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
What is depicted in those threads is my beta test version. I'll post photos of the final system as soon as I get the new strops made up.

Basically what I have is the main up-down f*****r (or more politely, "twing") on the rail on what is now a strong through-bolted pad-eye. The strops will be shorter than the forward one depicted.

Then an inf***r, err inhauler with your shackle which adjusts the inboard-outboard angle of the sheet lead.

So with no in-hauling, the sheet lead is rather outboard which is right for anything off about 50 AWA. From about 50 AWA you start playing the in-hauler to adjust the size of the slot and the angle of attack of the jib. It works a bit like your traveler.


I don't know how your present boat is rigged, and I don't know what kind of traveler you have, but if it's not easily adjustable from the cockpit under load, I suggest making that a top priority on the new boat together with easily adjustable from the cockpit sheet leads. I grew up on boats where you had to luff up and crawl out, pull up a pin to change the jib car position, and likewise with the traveler, and you learn to trim around that. But when you have these controls, you trim differently and far better. Traveler position and sheet lead angle become primary controls. Pardon me if you've long ago been through this and know all this already.

Lots of good info in the above links, plus your replies here. Thanks for the in depth posts.

Our track is there to provide multiple attachment points. Forward & aft is needed as well as up & down and in & out to have complete control. One point is reasonable for one sail that used in certain windstrengths and that is not reefed (that is generally the case racing). Lots of points on a track is valuable for a host of sails and conditions.

Moving the block easily would be nice. That is where I was thinking of a soft shackle looped around the low friction ring for the fixed portion.

Clutches are planned on our bulwark. Crawling will be needed.

I still don't have my head around exactly where our rings will attached. We have a huge number of options with all the rings in the "tracks" (on deck and the cabin top) and the holes in the bulwark. I think it will be a case of experimenting.

Photos of your system would be very interesting to see.

SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 09:53   #103
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I still don't have my head around exactly where our rings will attached.
Do you have a sail maker yet?

If you give any good sailmaker a copy of your rig/sail plan, they can give pretty precise advice on desired sheeting locations and range. And euro sail makers particularly will probably also be fully familiar with the low friction rig sheeting arrangements and options.

I find the sailmaker is often an underutilized resource in boat design and building details.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 09:56   #104
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,807
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Do you have a sail maker yet?

If you give any good sailmaker a copy of your rig/sail plan, they can give pretty precise advice on desired sheeting locations and range. And euro sail makers particularly will probably also be fully familiar with the low friction rig sheeting arrangements and options.

I find the sailmaker is often an underutilized resource in boat design and building details.
Sails are being organised by KM. Our rig is not dissimilar to other boats they have built so they will know what works.
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-06-2016, 10:36   #105
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,726
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
If you want to avoid the soft shackle then pass the loop through the pad eye then pop the ends over the low friction ring and bind it in using the same system as above. It would end up looking identical to the above photo, but secured on the pad eye.

The best method for the strop depends entirely on how long the strop can be.

SWL
That's exactly how I did my Generation 1.5 strops.

The race boat I was on a couple of weeks ago shortened their strops by simply looping the legs through the ring's eye. Don't forget that the rings can usually accommodate several lines through them at the same time, as long as the forces tend to separate them.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Instructions for Tying the High Strength Soft Shackle & Button Knot Seaworthy Lass Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 58 09-07-2017 17:55
Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle Seaworthy Lass Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 114 30-06-2017 06:22
Another sort of Soft Shackle Benz Commercial Posts 15 15-10-2014 04:49
How to make a soft shackle conachair Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 7 25-05-2013 06:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.