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Old 17-06-2016, 14:48   #76
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
photo or drawing please - not exactly sure what you are proposing.
This wasn't made to measure. It needs to be a bit shorter:




Side view of how the ring is gripped:

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Old 17-06-2016, 14:53   #77
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

You are aware of the 'french' free floating ring approach - this photo from a Pogo - blue line pulls lead side to side and red line pulls it up and down - so complete positioning freedom without 'moving' anything.

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Old 17-06-2016, 15:00   #78
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
You are aware of the 'french' free floating ring approach - this photo from a Pogo - blue line pulls lead side to side and red line pulls it up and down - so complete positioning freedom without 'moving' anything.

Attachment 126373
One thought looking at that is that the red line pulling it up and down will be entering the clutch at a high angle at times. Not good with high loads.
Scrap that (getting tired, midnight here).

That looks like a good system , apart from not giving the option of barberhauling out.
Really tired.
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Old 17-06-2016, 15:08   #79
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Initial reactions:

1. strength fine - just size dyneema properly
2. are you going to have a rubber or soft surface to the top of the aluminum rail? if not I imagine the ring edges will get dinged up pretty quickly. On the french approach the rings are sometimes held up with shock cord - but that presumes something above to tie it to - and their decks are less likely to ding the ring.
3. I would want to do something so the ring is actually firmly captured in that loop and something to prevent it from 'inverting' - my photo above does both. I guess if the soft shackle is really short and exactly correct length it will do both those things.

You could just put the soft shackle thru the middle of the ring (not as theoretically strong but most likely very adequate) - also solves my #3 - but still leaves #2. The soft shackle with have a 90 degree twist (assuming your rails are fore/aft) but that should be ok.

As an aside - are you having the toerail adjacent also with similar smooth round holes for outboard sheet leads? We really liked the ability to set outboard leads on Hawk - gave us measurable speed when more than 50 degrees off close reaching.
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Old 17-06-2016, 15:21   #80
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Initial reactions:

1. strength fine - just size dyneema properly
2. are you going to have a rubber or soft surface to the top of the aluminum rail? if not I imagine the ring edges will get dinged up pretty quickly. On the french approach the rings are sometimes held up with shock cord - but that presumes something above to tie it to - and their decks are less likely to ding the ring.
No, nothing on top of the rail. Nothing above either so it can't be tied up. Been vaguely considering if the ring could somehow be "padded". Needs more thought.


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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
3. I would want to do something so the ring is actually firmly captured in that loop and something to prevent it from 'inverting' - my photo above does both. I guess if the soft shackle is really short and exactly correct length it will do both those things.
I can't really see how it would invert with a line going through the low friction ring .
The ring could potentially slip out though (not that it would get lost ). Risk of this can be virtually eliminated I think if the soft shackle winds around once and the shackle is kept as short as possible whilst still enabling it to be opened and shut.


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As an aside - are you having the toerail adjacent also with similar smooth round holes for outboard sheet leads? We really liked the ability to set outboard leads on Hawk - gave us measurable speed when more than 50 degrees off close reaching.
Yes, heaps of those .
A few of them can be seen here:

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Old 17-06-2016, 15:44   #81
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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No, nothing on top of the rail. Nothing above either so it can't be tied up. Been vaguely considering if the ring could somehow be "padded". Needs more thought.

There are 'rubbery' coatings - google something like 'rubberized concrete coatings' - we used a DuPont product on hawk, but I dont remember what it was called. You could also use a tape of psa EVA (eva is a rubbery sort of plastic - psa - is pressure sensitive adhesive). Yea, I suppose you could rubberize the rail or pad the ring - strip of wide webbing around it would do.

I can't really see how it would invert with a line going through the low friction ring .

agree it probably should not when under steady load - but remember Murphy - if it can happen it will. In a fast sheet ease under heavy load there could be a bunch of friction twist on the ring (eg line going out - friction on top edge - bottom edge will want to rotate forward. would have to twist then, but if you do a gybe at that moment after the fast ease it could) And you just have the cases where the sheet is flogging/flailing and who knows which way the ring will be thrown/jerked. Idk - perhaps I am over thinking that, but I figure if I can imagine it, it can happen sometime.

The ring could potentially slip out though (not that it would get lost ). Risk of this can be virtually eliminated I think if the soft shackle winds around once and the shackle is kept as short as possible whilst still enabling it to be opened and shut.

Yea, if you really can make the shackle short enough so the ring is fully captured that's fine. I guess that also depends in part on how high the side walls of the ring are - higher makes it a bit easier to ensure it is really trapped.
I guess I would test this out on your current boat, if I was you. They have sliding padeyes that fit genoa track - get two and put them in place of your normal jib cars and put these rings on them and see how they go. I have qualms - but perhaps they will prove unfounded.
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Old 17-06-2016, 16:17   #82
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

I think what I posted in the pic in post #75 would make me happier - in that it captures the ring better. But ultimately I come back to what I said in post #63 as my preferred solution - multiple loop - with neck lashing - connected to your rail with separate soft shackle (since you want to be able to move it without taking the sheet out). I have an active imagination for things that can go wrong and that solution seems pretty foolproof (expect you need to deal with the 'ding' issue somehow).

If you put the ring on the rail with a lashing - the lashing could be constructed with a 'stiff neck' which would act as a 'stand-off' and be both strong and prevent dings (because of the stand-off) but then it is not movable. You could put a ring on each hole - but you would have to re thread the sheet.

I still quite like the pogo approach, but it does add the complexity of an adjustment line (or two). Your soft shackle approach you will not be able to adjust under load - only with the load off - so you could use a pogo set up with an adjustment line tied or cleated or with multiple set loops in it (rather than to a winch).
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Old 17-06-2016, 21:22   #83
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I guess I would test this out on your current boat, if I was you. They have sliding padeyes that fit genoa track - get two and put them in place of your normal jib cars and put these rings on them and see how they go. I have qualms - but perhaps they will prove unfounded.
All excellent advice. Many thanks.
We have brought back a few low friction rings to have a play this season.
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Old 17-06-2016, 21:48   #84
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I think what I posted in the pic in post #75 would make me happier - in that it captures the ring better.
I have woken up early thinking about this .

Have you made a High Strength shackle and after making the end noose, taken the two legs around the ring and secured each with a Brummel lock (I would make this as loose as possible without the ring being able to slip out so the throat is not super tight), then gone on to tie the button stopper enough distance away to give it the 28x line diameter bury?

If a really short attachment was needed, the end noose could be made as close as possible to the low friction ring (still allowing distance for opening) and the Button would then be secured at the side rather than the bottom.

Edited to add: a Brummel lock is not needed I think, just a second pass of the working end through the standing would mean the loop would be very inlikely to enlarge enough for the ring to slip out.


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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
But ultimately I come back to what I said in post #63 as my preferred solution - multiple loop - with neck lashing - connected to your rail with separate soft shackle (since you want to be able to move it without taking the sheet out). I have an active imagination for things that can go wrong and that solution seems pretty foolproof (expect you need to deal with the 'ding' issue somehow).

If you put the ring on the rail with a lashing - the lashing could be constructed with a 'stiff neck' which would act as a 'stand-off' and be both strong and prevent dings (because of the stand-off) but then it is not movable. You could put a ring on each hole - but you would have to re thread the sheet.
If the ring is secured on the rail then is could perhaps be very loosely tied up to the lifeine, just enough to prevent the 'ding'? This could probably be done without putting any strain on the lifeline. No stiffness would then be required in the strop.


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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I still quite like the pogo approach, but it does add the complexity of an adjustment line (or two). Your soft shackle approach you will not be able to adjust under load - only with the load off - so you could use a pogo set up with an adjustment line tied or cleated or with multiple set loops in it (rather than to a winch).
The more I look at it the more it appeals . It would just need another clutch. We are not racing so adjustments don't have to be made simultaneously and a clutch would suffice.

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Old 17-06-2016, 22:33   #85
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post

The more I look at it the more it appeals . It would just need another clutch. We are not racing so adjustments don't have to be made simultaneously and a clutch would suffice.

SWL
Did you give up the idea you were working on earlier, based on the setup I ended up with for sheet leads for my blade jib?

There were a couple of threads about it:

Dyneema Loops/Blocks as an Alternative to a Jib Car

jib car eliminator

Tracks for Blade Jib


It sounds like you are now thinking about an old fashioned manual track after all, just with a strop and ring instead of a normal block? Or did I read you wrong there?


If so, don't do it! The ability to regulate sheeting angle from the cockpit is essential to decent sail trim. Having to luff up and crawl out to the side decks every time you want to adjust sheeting angle -- like on my previous boat -- is something you will never go back to, if you've ever tried remote control jib cars or any other system which allows you to do it from the cockpit.

My system is similar to the Pogo system Evans mentioned, but for a big boat it gives triple purchase. With the low friction eyes this gives incredibly smooth and easy regulation of the huge loads involved -- it's a revelation. The only downside is that this degree of purchase requires very long control lines, but they are only 10mm so it's not in practice really a problem.

I have a large low friction eye spliced to the end of the control line, through which the sheet goes. The control line is looped through one of the strop-eyes, then back through the large eye at the end, then down through the second strop-eye, and from there through stanchion blocks to a turning block at the quarter, and back to the cockpit.

I'm using a clutch on the rail, and this is the key flaw in my system -- a winch is occupied with this line unless I'm willing to crawl out to the rail to open and close the clutch. You should have a clutch within easy reach.

The purchase is so powerful that you don't even need to slack the sheet to adjust it, like you do with a regular towable car.

And the range of adjustment is huge -- more than any normal car and track. So the one setup, with one set of padeyes, would work for headsails of different sizes.

Fine adjustment of sheeting angle is really extraordinarily useful for good sail trim. It's a primary control.

You don't want the strops to be too short or you won't be able to work the third dimension -- hauling inboard and outboard, which is also extraordinarily useful. I believe in Antipodea, the racers call these "inf**kers" and "outf**kers". For the "in-whatever", I use my staysail sheet with a low friction eye soft shackled (using one of your generation 1 soft shackles -- thanks again for that) on. So using the staysail sheet I can pull the jib sheet lead inboard. The longish strops for the main part of the sheet lead then tilt inboard.

It is truly brilliant in operation, a great leap forward in sail control. I'd like to rip out my tracks and set up a similar system for my overlapping yankee.

Note that using the inhauler there will be a fair good bit of angle on the strops of the main lead, which magnifies the load on the system -- so you have to be sure that the whole system is strong enough. For you with welded on padeyes that won't be a problem, but I spent a lot of money this year upgrading my padeyes after ripping out a few sets of them last year.

The strops themselves carry less load due to the purchase involved.

The low friction eyes have less friction than regular blocks, and they have far less "stiction" -- I don't know how to describe it -- resistance to getting moving in the first place. So a multiple purchase tackle is far smoother than one made with regular blocks. It is really a revelation.

Inboard-outboard control of the sheet lead also has a huge effect on sail trim. Regulating the size of the slot upwind has a big effect on air circulation and interaction between jib and main. Also the effect is similar to using the traveler on the main -- fine adjustment of angle of attack of the jib. Going back to the regular car system for my yankee (Lewmar Size 3 towable cars) feels like losing my traveler, or something.
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Old 17-06-2016, 22:39   #86
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
. . . I still quite like the pogo approach, but it does add the complexity of an adjustment line (or two). .

It does not add any complexity compared to towable jib cars. Just one control line for sheeting angle up and down adjustment, equivalent to moving a car forward and aft.

A second control line for inboard and outboard, but that is also no added complexity compared to a barber hauler. In my case, no extra line at all because I use my staysail sheet (single sheet for self-tacking setup on a sliding car).
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Old 17-06-2016, 22:42   #87
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I guess I would test this out on your current boat, if I was you. They have sliding padeyes that fit genoa track - get two and put them in place of your normal jib cars and put these rings on them and see how they go. I have qualms - but perhaps they will prove unfounded.
To make your strops passive and adjust sheeting angle with sliding padeyes would give up the main advantage of this system! You don't need to slide anything forward and aft, if you can adjust the sheet lead up and down.
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Old 17-06-2016, 22:45   #88
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
. . . As an aside - are you having the toerail adjacent also with similar smooth round holes for outboard sheet leads? We really liked the ability to set outboard leads on Hawk - gave us measurable speed when more than 50 degrees off close reaching.
Imagine how much better still it would be to have control over the inboard-outboard sheeting angle from the cockpit. And not just binary two discrete positions. This is worth even another control line, if necessary to achieve, in my opinion.
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Old 17-06-2016, 22:50   #89
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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. . . The most common approach for 'higher strength' applications is both ends of the strop tight-eye-spliced to the ring - is a bit less than 2x the strength of the dyneema - which in most cases would be very strong, and it captures the ring in a way which cannot be inverted.
. . . .
That was how I did my Generation 2 strops last year -- two brummel eye splices. Put both eye splices around the low friction ring and it forms a loop.

I could not however get the eye splices really tight, so I seized the legs together with one loop around the low friction eye to keep the seizing from slipping down.

Worked ok, but seizing was not pretty. But that's a question of workmanship, not design. I am no SWL (to say the least), where that is concerned. Would be nice to have a pair of hands like those, on board.
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Old 17-06-2016, 23:12   #90
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Re: My First Soft Shackle

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Did you give up the idea you were working on earlier, based on the setup I ended up with for sheet leads for my blade jib?

There were a couple of threads about it:

Dyneema Loops/Blocks as an Alternative to a Jib Car

jib car eliminator

Tracks for Blade Jib

Excellent feedback in his post. Many thanks. I was aware of these threads, but for me it was put into the "sort it out later" category. I need to go and read those threads properly and draw it out and think about it.

I actually have excess time on my hands today for the very first time in about 8 months. I was going to make a few soft shackles now that I have more dyneema (no decent ones left) but this is a good task to occupy myself with instead.


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You don't want the strops to be too short or you won't be able to work the third dimension -- hauling inboard and outboard, which is also extraordinarily useful. I believe in Antipodea, the racers call these "inf**kers" and "outf**kers"
And spinnaker topping lift and uphaul are similarly named .
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