Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-06-2016, 11:41   #31
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
Check out the July 2016 edition of Yachting Monthly for a detailed article on tying different dyneema loops and a review of those commercially available (in the UK). Good information from a reliable source
I just read it . . Got to say I think they made a real mess somehow of their testing. Just for instance, one of their breaks was in the middle of the shackle (eg not at the knot nor at the noose) but it broke at a low load there - what - should never ever break there? That is very odd, suggests either a very very poorly made shackle (extremely uneven length legs) or a pulling procedure that but a really small bend radius on the shackle.

And the photos of the ones they said were to my design, were very very clearly not - because mine use two seperate legs and their photos show shackles with buried (single) legs.

Since they referred to me and my web site quite a bit, I wish they had contacted me.
__________________

__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 13:25   #32
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,810
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I just read it . . Got to say I think they made a real mess somehow of their testing. Just for instance, one of their breaks was in the middle of the shackle (eg not at the knot nor at the noose) but it broke at a low load there - what - should never ever break there? That is very odd, suggests either a very very poorly made shackle (extremely uneven length legs) or a pulling procedure that but a really small bend radius on the shackle.

And the photos of the ones they said were to my design, were very very clearly not - because mine use two seperate legs and their photos show shackles with buried (single) legs.

Since they referred to me and my web site quite a bit, I wish they had contacted me.
Evans, sorry to hear about this. It is a frustrating issue. Pretty poor of a reputable magazine to accept an article like that.

--------------

Regarding low friction rings, my conclusions after a bit of a play tonight are :

A cross over doesn't work well, so I have abandoned the High Strength shackle.

A soft shackle with central bury using 6 mm dyneema wraps very neatly around a Wichard low friction ring suitable for 17mm line. It seems to be a good solution if you need a very short strop.

I still really like the initial method I tried. The ring is gripped very simply and snuggly and it literally takes about a minute to do this. I also like not having to sew anything, so the Grog sling is very appealing too. Any reduction in strength from doing either of these two things could more than likely be compensated by simply going up a mm or two in line thickness.

The third technique you mentioned (long loop wrapped around the ring) sounds good, but securing the line around the ring is an issue. Tacking does not sounds great. If velcro is used instead, I can see the possibility of it slipping down.

Instead I tried winding some thin spectra line around. I have no decorative knot skills, apart from being familiar with a Turk's head, but the weave below looked neat and sturdyand was no more time consuming than sewing would be. I secured the ends by winding the last turns around one and tying a constrictor knot with the other (I have Dockhead to thank for introducing me to this knot a few years ago), then just feeding them down the Dyneema. Does anyone have any better suggestions for that? I imagine some beautiful designs may be possible, but my biggest concern is how to secure the ends when finished. It seemed better than tacking, as the Dyneema was not penetrated or unduly stressed and the throat was not sharp.

SWL

__________________

__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 13:42   #33
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: My First Soft Shackle

^^ that is very attractive and clean.

There was an (Italian I think) guy who did beautiful work with red and black cord detail like that, who used to post on SA - including I remember a ring throat detail very very like that. But he got distracted building a new boat a couple years ago - thinking about it he may even had it done at your yard (aluaka54?)

here it is:
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC03617.JPG
Views:	165
Size:	324.9 KB
ID:	126024


Regarding securing loops around ring . . . .just a quick thought - 3m vhb tape (double sided) - it does not have to take any significant load, just has to hold the line in place. I could see a double sided tape sandwich (sandwiching the dyneema) with a dacron sticky tape top covering (to cover over the tape and make it clean) - not sure if it makes sense but just thinking a bit 'outside the rope work box'.

and just a few more of that guys work . . .
Click image for larger version

Name:	22e4490ed6d41912eae357dbeeba6dd1.jpg
Views:	140
Size:	51.6 KB
ID:	126025

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC03689.JPG
Views:	180
Size:	320.4 KB
ID:	126026

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC03747.JPG
Views:	113
Size:	286.1 KB
ID:	126027
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 14:06   #34
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Evans, sorry to hear about this. It is a frustrating issue. Pretty poor of a reputable magazine to accept an article like that.

--------------

Regarding low friction rings, my conclusions after a bit of a play tonight are :

A cross over doesn't work well, so I have abandoned the High Strength shackle.

A soft shackle with central bury using 6 mm dyneema wraps very neatly around a Wichard low friction ring suitable for 17mm line. It seems to be a good solution if you need a very short strop.

I still really like the initial method I tried. The ring is gripped very simply and snuggly and it literally takes about a minute to do this. I also like not having to sew anything, so the Grog sling is very appealing too. Any reduction in strength from doing either of these two things could more than likely be compensated by simply going up a mm or two in line thickness.

The third technique you mentioned (long loop wrapped around the ring) sounds good, but securing the line around the ring is an issue. Tacking does not sounds great. If velcro is used instead, I can see the possibility of it slipping down.

Instead I tried winding some thin spectra line around. I have no decorative knot skills, apart from being familiar with a Turk's head, but the weave below looked neat and sturdyand was no more time consuming than sewing would be. I secured the ends by winding the last turns around one and tying a constrictor knot with the other (I have Dockhead to thank for introducing me to this knot a few years ago), then just feeding them down the Dyneema. Does anyone have any better suggestions for that? I imagine some beautiful designs may be possible, but my biggest concern is how to secure the ends when finished. It seemed better than tacking, as the Dyneema was not penetrated or unduly stressed and the throat was not sharp.

SWL

That's very similar (but inexpressibly more neatly done) to what I did on my v 1.0 strop. The main difference (besides neatness) was that I looped the seizing around the ring a couple of times -- in order to prevent the mass of seizing from working its way down.

I am not more and more inclined to something like this kind of thing -- I don't want to do anything to "distract" the strop from its main job. A strong spliced loop and something like this to retain the ring. And not pulling the throat too tight.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 14:08   #35
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
^^ that is very attractive and clean.

There was an (Italian I think) guy who did beautiful work with red and black cord detail like that, who used to post on SA - including I remember a ring throat detail very very like that. But he got distracted building a new boat a couple years ago - thinking about it he may even had it done at your yard (aluaka54?)

here it is:
Attachment 126024


Regarding securing loops around ring . . . .just a quick thought - 3m vhb tape (double sided) - it does not have to take any significant load, just has to hold the line in place. I could see a double sided tape sandwich (sandwiching the dyneema) with a dacron sticky tape top covering (to cover over the tape and make it clean) - not sure if it makes sense but just thinking a bit 'outside the rope work box'.

and just a few more of that guys work . . .
Attachment 126025

Attachment 126026

Attachment 126027
Wow, that's pretty!

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 14:31   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West Sussex, United Kingdom
Boat: Tradewind 33, 33 foot, Parker 27 , 27 foot
Posts: 98
Re: My First Soft Shackle

As you are UK based, get a copy of July edition of Yachting Monthly, there is a very clear article with good pictures and info on how to make soft shackles including the stopper knot. I have made five so far, very easy and clear instructions. It suggests cutting the tails off at about 6mm (1/4 inch) but I left them at about an inch long which will help if the knot does slip a little and also helps when feeding the knot through the eye. if you tie the two ends together before cutting them off, you can then put a line through the loop to tighten the knot before cutting off the tails.
__________________
Martkimwat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 14:55   #37
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: My First Soft Shackle

^^ as I said a few posts above - that is a truely crappy article - factually wrong in very many regards. Their diamond shackle instructions are fine, BUT you can easily find better YouTube instructions, and that is not the best design for a soft shackle.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 15:06   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Seattle
Boat: Wauquiez Centurion 49
Posts: 720
Images: 13
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Dockhead, have you tried this method?
__________________
CAELESTIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 15:12   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Not sure if this video "How to make a soft shackle" has been previously posted, if so pardon me.
VIDEO: How to Make a Soft Shackle >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News
__________________
bowieward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2016, 00:13   #40
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,810
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
Check out the July 2016 edition of Yachting Monthly for a detailed article on tying different dyneema loops and a review of those commercially available (in the UK). Good information from a reliable source
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martkimwat View Post
As you are UK based, get a copy of July edition of Yachting Monthly, there is a very clear article with good pictures and info on how to make soft shackles including the stopper knot. I have made five so far, very easy and clear instructions. It suggests cutting the tails off at about 6mm (1/4 inch) but I left them at about an inch long which will help if the knot does slip a little and also helps when feeding the knot through the eye. if you tie the two ends together before cutting them off, you can then put a line through the loop to tighten the knot before cutting off the tails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowieward View Post
Not sure if this video "How to make a soft shackle" has been previously posted, if so pardon me.
VIDEO: How to Make a Soft Shackle >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News
The video in Scuttlebutt showing how to tie an old style soft shackle (sometimes referred to as a Colligomarine Soft Shackle) is from Yachting Monthly, and I presume what they give instructions for in the July 2016 article.

This is not the best form of soft shackle:
- It is not the strongest.
- It uses a Diamond knot with a tail sticking out of its head that snags when pushing it though the loop (making one handed operation difficult)
- It is fiddlly to open and then milk back the outer portion to close the end noose around the stopper, particularly if the shackle has been used underwater attaching snubber to chain

Over the last couple of years it has been "superceded" by several designs.

There are two known stronger forms (230% of line strength), both with unburied central portions using stoppers without tails. These are the Strarzinger Improved shackle and the High Strength Soft Shackle:

"STARZINGER IMPROVED SHACKLE"

The 2 legs of the main body have small loops at the end and these are used to create an unsymmetrical stopper.
Instructions can be found here: Load testing
This is the soft shackle Dockhead made.


"HIGH STRENGTH SOFT SHACKLE"

This was designed by Allen Edwards, Evans Starzinger and Brion Toss. The stopper is a symmetrical and what I would call "very elegant" Button stopper.
Instructions: Stronger Soft Shackle | How to tie the Stronger Soft Shackle | Splicing Knots




Even if the weaker Diamond knot with the stumpy tail is used, the problem of fiddly opening and closing of the noose has been overcome by this model:
"BETTER SOFT SHACKLE":
Instructions: Better Soft Shackle Better Soft Shackle | How to tie the Better Soft Shackle | Splicing Knots




"BB SOFT SHACKLE"

In the High Strength Soft Shackle part of the central body can be buried (ie creating one central leg, not two). I have called this the BB Soft Shackle. If a full length bury of the stopper tails is used, I think it would be full strength. In the ones I am making I have chosen to make the buried tails a bit shorter, giving a longer central bury, which suits my needs:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...le-155714.html




Tying an old style soft shackle using a Diamond stopper has no advantages over the newer designs (it is weaker and harder to open and close), so why is this outdated design being promoted by the latest Yachting Monthly and Scuttlebutt News? .


SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2016, 00:39   #41
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAELESTIS View Post
Dockhead, have you tried this method?
Yes -- my very first strop was made like this. And this strop is still in service.

I made brummel eyes on both ends, put both eyes on the ring, then whipped the the two legs together. It's actually not bad at all. But there are these minuses:

1. Relatively laborious making the two brummel eyes,

2. The brummel eyes don't really fit well

3. The brummel eyes are not as strong as a continuous loop.


That's why I think I'm going to go back to a simple continuous loop, which is the strongest construction, and just whip the legs together slightly like SWL has done. This is elegant and strong.

Note that security of the ring is important but not critical like strength of the strop is. The ring can't fall overboard as it is retained by the line going through it in any case, and won't move in any case once it's under load. So I don't want to compromise the strength of the strop.

The whipping on my very first one of these was looped all the way around the ring making it fool-proof, and also preventing the whipping from slipping down the strop. Possibly a neater version of this would really be optimal.

I'm busy with my work this week so won't be messing with this for a few days, but I'll be thinking about it, and seeing what our brilliant colleagues (SWL and EStarzinger) might come up with.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2016, 05:56   #42
Registered User

Join Date: May 2016
Location: mackay, queensland. australia
Boat: e.a jack (builder), g.l watson (designer), 6.2 mtr wll sailboat
Posts: 487
Re: My First Soft Shackle

excellent job / was using double layer of silver rope tied with reef knot and locked in by passing free ends back through the rope by opening the strands and pushing the rope through a couple of times (quick splice) tidying up by holding both side together binding with tape. didn't really have a name out on the water was used for all sorts of running repairs / it was a long time before someone asked what the material was used in the soft shackle / thus began my introduction to soft shackle
thank you for the excellent photo i will try to lift my game
__________________
knockabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2016, 10:05   #43
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: My First Soft Shackle

What if instead of just seizing the legs of a simple loop, we make a "noose" in it, and put the ring in the "noose"? This it seems to me makes the loop lie much tighter around the ring in its natural position, so less challenge for the seizing or stitching. While maintaining very good angle of the fibers so minimal reduction of strength.

What think ye?



Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1465833916125.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	35.4 KB
ID:	126097   Click image for larger version

Name:	1465833928984.jpg
Views:	66
Size:	34.2 KB
ID:	126098  

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2016, 10:35   #44
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,810
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
What if instead of just seizing the legs of a simple loop, we make a "noose" in it, and put the ring in the "noose"? This it seems to me makes the loop lie much tighter around the ring in its natural position, so less challenge for the seizing or stitching. While maintaining very good angle of the fibers so minimal reduction of strength.

What think ye?
I like the idea of using a cross over. Rather than putting it close to the ring, I would make it just far enough away that the "noose" was too small for the ring to pass through making the angle of pull as straight as possible.

I would even go one step further and make a Brummel lock (dead easy with 2 loose ends) and bury a bit of the line, essentially creating a spliced loop around the ring. Then the loose ends could then be end to end spliced to create a long loop that could be attached with a cow hitch.

This would eliminate the need for any whipping at all and there would be no risk of the noose enlarging if the arrangement was flogged.

This would, however, weaken the system slightly I think. Just pick a Dyneema diameter that is overkill and you don't have to worry about that at all then though .

Same goes with the even simpler system I suggested of encircling the dyneema around the ring and burying the top portion. A slight increase in line diameter is likely to more than compensate any minor reduction in strength .

SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2016, 11:57   #45
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,735
Re: My First Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I like the idea of using a cross over. Rather than putting it close to the ring, I would make it just far enough away that the "noose" was too small for the ring to pass through making the angle of pull as straight as possible.

I would even go one step further and make a Brummel lock (dead easy with 2 loose ends) and bury a bit of the line, essentially creating a spliced loop around the ring. Then the loose ends could then be end to end spliced to create a long loop that could be attached with a cow hitch.

This would eliminate the need for any whipping at all and there would be no risk of the noose enlarging if the arrangement was flogged.

This would, however, weaken the system slightly I think. Just pick a Dyneema diameter that is overkill and you don't have to worry about that at all then though .

Same goes with the even simpler system I suggested of encircling the dyneema around the ring and burying the top portion. A slight increase in line diameter is likely to more than compensate any minor reduction in strength .

SWL
Yes, well, I still don't understand how you "encircled" the dyneema around the ring.


Here is another view on how to do it, from the Swan 60 racer I spent the day on a couple of weeks ago:

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0158[1].jpg
Views:	120
Size:	396.2 KB
ID:	126100

Clearly they are agonizing about this a lot less than we are.

Note the strop on the left side of the frame -- it's just a loop which they've looped THROUGH the ring to reduce the length.

They just velcro around the legs and forget about it. The two joined rings on the right side appear to have a rubber band around the legs.


Concerning the "crossover" noose which I made -- I have been playing with the strop, unwhipped. The "noose" naturally grips the ring, which stays in place. You have to make an effort to pull it out. This is good. It means a bit of stitching would carry very little load and be stable. But now I have another problem -- if I do a 72x bury x2 for a long splice, the damned strop will be too long. Bleh. I might have to go back to brummel eyes on each end.


By the way, I'm VERY pleased with the two shackles I made for my jib sheets. The stopper knots are as if solid lumps of dyneema. The geometry is excellent. These are good. Thanks to you and Evans for all the good advice. This is Evans' standard Improved Soft Shackle, using the "reduced knot" option. They were a snap to make -- you just make two simple spliced eyes in either end, which in addition should be more secure than a knot, I would think. The knot is not decorative, but looks fine to me.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Instructions for Tying the High Strength Soft Shackle & Button Knot Seaworthy Lass Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 58 09-07-2017 17:55
Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle Seaworthy Lass Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 114 30-06-2017 06:22
Another sort of Soft Shackle Benz Commercial Posts 15 15-10-2014 04:49
How to make a soft shackle conachair Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 7 25-05-2013 06:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.