Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-10-2016, 14:24   #61
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 2,601
Re: Max righting moment question

I think he meant putting the roller furler on the bowsprit?

Once again I agree with Barnikal, dont get too carried away with modifications until you have some decent sailing time on the boat. However a bowsprit might solve a few issues with the overlong furler, if that is the problem with it.
__________________

__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2016, 15:26   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Chesapeake southern new jersey
Boat: Eastward ho 24
Posts: 69
Re: Max righting moment question

I meant moving the roller furling to a bow sprit, not anchor roller.
__________________

__________________
Eastward ho 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2016, 17:28   #63
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 707
Re: Max righting moment question

Yes, getting the jib stay moved forward is OBVIOUSLY going to reduce or eliminate the rake. It'll also drop the clew of the jib a bit, but you might have enuff clearance depending on the cut of the sail. These are the kinds of problems - "Big fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em..." that you run into when some owner who is weak on the fundamental concepts makes "improvements" along the way.

TrentePieds suffers from that too. Her PO had ODed on the codswallop that's bandied about in popular sailing magazines, both as advertising and as editorial copy.

TrentePieds
__________________
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2016, 19:38   #64
Registered User
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 2,624
Images: 16
Re: Max righting moment question

I must have missed it but are you thinking of adding a sprit and moving the rake forward? She doesn't have a sprit already? I thought she did. Is the rake currently wrong? The adjustable backstay should not change the rake, it is intended to increase tension on the headstay. Reducing rake, and adding to "J" will move the center of effort and give you more lee helm. If you are adding more length out front (the "J"), I wouldn't change the rake. Why not first see how she sails with a 150 genoa cut a little closer to the deck for a while and see how you like it? I had a 24 footer (Columbia 24, much lighter than the EH admittedly) and the 150 was my main driver.. I'd reef the main before going to a smaller headsail.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen shot 2016-10-11 at 6.38.07 PM.png
Views:	15
Size:	315.4 KB
ID:	132718  
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2016, 22:00   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 707
Re: Max righting moment question

Remember I advocated bringing her back into conformity with the designer's intentions? Sprit, no rake to speak of, just thoroughly-old fashioned.

She is very deep aft, and as the forefoot is cut away, the lateral centre of the canoe body is a long way aft by our standards. She was meant to sail on her main, when she is sailing at all, which is why her backstay is taken to a bumpkin to accommodate the long boom, and I suspect that trying to drive her with a 150% genny in any kinda wind will require you to put your feet on the tiller and hold it down to leeward with all your might :-)!

The CE of the sail plan, sprit'n'all, and counting only the actual fore-triangle, is easy enuff to find. Fore-triangle only, cos even though she has a masthead rig, she was meant to carry a only a jib, never mind a genny. The forestay is taken to the masthead cos that simplifies all the other standing rigging. It is not, I would think, to confer the benefits of a longer hdsl luff.

We all know that the CG of a cardboard cutout of the underwater profile of the boat is a proxy for the lateral CE of the canoe body, and that plotting the two on the profile will give you the lead. If I were the OP I'd do that just to get a notion of what to expect. As I've done for TrentePieds.

Having done that, it's also easy enuff to get an idea of how much hdsl you can really carry without destroying the slight weather helm this boat ought to have.

Not doing it, not "doing the homework" when it is so very simple to do, seems to me to be an invitation to disappointment, let alone the road to needless expense and outright waste of money.

TrentePieds
__________________
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 07:51   #66
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Chesapeake southern new jersey
Boat: Eastward ho 24
Posts: 69
Re: Max righting moment question

Yes I don't have a bowsprit, it was an option for my boat and if I go to mauripro or sailboat data the specs they have for the headsail is with a bowsprit. I can only assume the roller was bought to accommodate this however in my inexperience I can't really say if the mast is raked too much. Down at the boot it's sitting flat on the deck.i did pull my hylard down plumb and measured the rake it's 10 inches. As for weather helm or Lee helm I'm too inexperienced to get a bearing on if I have to much of either or. Maybe tge rake is correct ( in my ignorance) im only thinking it's not by looking at the other boats in the marina, my mast is so far back compared to the other boats it jumps out at like something wrong. Also the flexible furling doesn't have much tension kinda wobbles around when furled in.its clear to the top of the mast and to the bow with no room to tighten anything. I may be getting in over my head with all this. it's just that I'm pulling the mast and replacing the standing rigging and didn't want to replace everything and get it wrong..I didn't think about a back stay adjuster Only tensioning the back stay, makes sense. I was only thinking of adding the bowsprit thinking if I determined the mast had to be pulled foreward I would have the room to do so and if determined the current rake was correct I could always leave it. Forgive my inexperience probably trying to fix somthing that's I'm not even clear if there's an issue.i haven't seen a boat with a mast so raked, but I gues that doesnt mean a thing.
__________________
Eastward ho 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 10:02   #67
Registered User
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 2,624
Images: 16
Re: Max righting moment question

My own boat is designed to have an 8.5" rake, but my mast is 36' high. 10" sounds like it's on the high side, but not necessarily, depends on how it was designed. Chesapeake Bay Sharpies are known for there mast rake. If the boom is level when the main is up and the mainsail is cut so that the foot is level, then it may be the correct rake. However, since it was designed with a bowsprit, going back to that is a good start I'd say. I bet the fitting on the stem was for a staysail, as with the Dana 24 rig. Got any photos?
http://www.polysail.com/Coot_files/image002.jpg
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 10:08   #68
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 707
Re: Max righting moment question

Well yes, it prolly DOES "mean a thing" :-) There is an old saying "If it looks right, it'll sail right", so you are right to be suspicious if something looks wonkey.

Looking at the EH24 profile in Sailboatdata, my eye tells me that she does, indeed, have rake. 10 inches or so in on a 25-foot stick would not be abnormal. So if the mast is stepped on the stanchion that goes from keel to deck right through the saloon table and your halyard came down to the deck immediately forrard of the "pilot house", your rake is in the ballpark, and you should retain it as it is.

This boat was designed towards the end of his life, in 1973, or thereabouts, by one of finest naval architects then practicing in the U.S. - Walter McInnes. It would, I think, be unseemly for any of us on this forum to try to second-guess him! The very best thing you can do for yourself and for the boat is, as I've said, to bring her back into conformity with McInnes' intentions. I think of this little boat as a conceit, a folly. The old man was amusing himself and finding great pleasure in creating a tiny, perfect digest of all he had learned over a very long and successful career.

As the discussion has gone so far, it seems that only two things are required:

!) Fit a sprit! The original sprit was quite short and a replacement for the missing one is quite easily made from wood, same as the original was. The trick will be in the fastening of it to the deck, but I'd be very surprised if a little poking about would not reveal where the original attachments were. The holes in the deck may well still be there, just bunged and covered over. On the cutwater you may still find vestiges of the bobstay attachment.

2) Scupper the roller furling jib. It is NOT original, and was not part of McInnes' intentions. Roller furling jibs had NOT been invented when EH24 was designed! When you've fitted a sprit, a new headstay is a piecacake for a rigger to make up for you. You could even do it yourself, as we often did in those days. The bits'n'pieces you'll need are readily available.

Having done those two things you'll have a REAL EH24 in all her diminutive beauty.

It is a certainty that the roller-furling jib is a retrofit - and a bad one at that. Because this little ship was designed as a motorsailer, her SAILING abilities, particularly in light weather, are, shall we say, slight. That was deliberate on McInnes' part. She sails on the main when she sails, and the hdsl's function is in large part to trim the helm so she will steer her own course. which she will do beautifully if you don't monkey with her. The hdsl does indeed contribute SOME drive, mainly by smoothing the airflow over the leeward side of the mnsl's luff, which is where the real work happens. If you can maintain a nice, well-behaved airflow over the leeward side of the hdsl's luff, you are that much further ahead. You CAN'T do that with a roller-furl! Roller-furling jibs are for BIG boats. They are a different breedacat! A a roller-furl on a boat like this buys you piddling convenience at the cost of significant loss off sailing ability, which, as I've said, is already slight. That you should "need" roller furling is mere affectation.

The hdsl you have needs not go to waste. There is plenty of material in it to shape a hdsl that meets the needs of the EH24. To remove it from the furling gear is no biggie and neither is laying a tabling on it with cringles for hanks. I doubt very much that the 150% you cite will do you much good. 110% seems to me to be more like it, since that is all it takes to smoothe the flow on the back of the mnsl. Sailmakers tend to charge what the market will bear, which these days is quite a lot. But here again, you can do the work yourself if you care to do some homework and learn some new things :-)

You should not, in any event, go to sea before you've learned the basic skills of the sailmaker :-)!

TrentePieds
__________________
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 10:18   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Chesapeake southern new jersey
Boat: Eastward ho 24
Posts: 69
Re: Max righting moment question

I'll have to take a pic Webern I get home to the boat tonight. Heres a pic I have on my phone not to revealing but here they are
__________________
Eastward ho 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 10:19   #70
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Chesapeake southern new jersey
Boat: Eastward ho 24
Posts: 69
Re: Max righting moment question

Another
__________________
Eastward ho 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 10:28   #71
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Chesapeake southern new jersey
Boat: Eastward ho 24
Posts: 69
Re: Max righting moment question

Hmm pics not uploading I'll see if I can ad them to my profile
__________________
Eastward ho 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 10:45   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Chesapeake southern new jersey
Boat: Eastward ho 24
Posts: 69
Re: Max righting moment question

They're in my profile... So add the sprit leave the rake,measure my rigging per where the mast is currently located. Oh boy that roller is so nice when it's blowing. Funny because when it's blowing 20 I usally use just the Genny, when as you mention the boat is meant to sail with the main..I also noticed my boom goes almost past my stern and looking at other boats I often wondered what the pros and cons were, I assumed just to get more sail area and keep it low, I see what you mean. It's to balance the boat under just the main too? And I never thought raise the main and check to see if the boom is level. Good idea. I assume it should be level,and if the mast was raked to much the boom would dip to the stern..
__________________
Eastward ho 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 11:41   #73
Registered User
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 2,624
Images: 16
Re: Max righting moment question

Hey, she's a cute little boat. Looks to be in great shape! Personally, I would not ditch the roller furler yet. (And I am a hank-on guy myself!) I'd put a sprit back on and see if the roller furler was built to be on the sprit, I bet it was. Then go sailing and see what happens! Maybe just a big ol' used drifter from Bacon Sails in Md. would give you enough light air performance to alleviate the need for excessive motoring! With that high house she reminds me of my ol' Columbia 24. I bet she's a comfortable little pocket cruiser.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 15:15   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Chesapeake southern new jersey
Boat: Eastward ho 24
Posts: 69
Re: Max righting moment question

Haha your good.. it is from bacon sails.
__________________
Eastward ho 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 17:24   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Chesapeake southern new jersey
Boat: Eastward ho 24
Posts: 69
Re: Max righting moment question

So a general inquiry as to bilges..my bilge is deep wide and runs awhile length of my boat.my fuel and water (20gal) each are amidships on the beams which doesn't help cog. Down the road Im planning on glassing integral tanks. Into the bilge. Currently my bilge is from shaftseal to cabin unobstructed and would need to fill considerably for my bilge to even kick on(20volt de walt shop vac is PERFECT ) I if my engine compartment were to flood it would flood the whole entire boat and wouldn't be good. Whats the "normal" bilge? I was gonna put a bulkhead just fore of my shaftseal so it would fill quickly and drain frequently as opposed to filling the whole bilge by the time it would be enough for the bilge to kick on would need to be alot of aqua.Seems to be a pretty dangerous situation, it's a dry boat other then the shaft seal drip( which I'm considering dripless ) . The letter you posted from Olin stephens solidify my suspicions that flooding of the cockpit into the engine compartment would be trouble. but im pretty sure I could hold alot of water and fuel and add ballast too.but why such the long deep bilge? Why even a bilge at all? I would think a considerably small bilge with high output pump would be better? ..just a thoght
__________________

__________________
Eastward ho 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
men

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Righting a Capsized Tri DaveOnCudjoe Multihull Sailboats 32 21-11-2013 09:40
Righting Moment Data - Fisher 46 blue merlin Monohull Sailboats 4 18-12-2009 19:48
righting a multi gone turtle sail_the_stars Multihull Sailboats 110 15-06-2008 04:31


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.