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Old 16-03-2015, 11:00   #16
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Re: Mast broke in half

"The boat is a 1974 and don't know if it is original rigging."

On a boat that old, that's the kind of thing you SHOULD know. The philospphy of just waiting until it breaks isn't a particularly good one, for reasons you now appreciate.
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Old 16-03-2015, 11:09   #17
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Re: Mast broke in half

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
"The boat is a 1974 and don't know if it is original rigging."

On a boat that old, that's the kind of thing you SHOULD know. The philospphy of just waiting until it breaks isn't a particularly good one, for reasons you now appreciate.
Agreed.

I had the yard here do a rigging inspection a year ago. The rigger called to tell me that he'd found a couple cracked swages and that (in his words): "I don't know exactly how old the rigging is, but I know for a fact nobody's made these particular terminals in 20 years."

I told them to replace it all.
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Old 16-03-2015, 11:14   #18
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Re: Mast broke in half

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago on my 1968 Swan. The previous owner had replaced the rigging except the chain plates about 7 years earlier. All of the rigging was over sized from the original. I thought great no problem. I had even closely inspected the chain plates and they appeared to be in great shape and very heavy which I expected from Swan.

We were sailing in 25 knot winds which she handles just wonderfully and we were having a great time. We heard a pop and immediately turned into the wind. No real damage but rear port chain plate broke. We motored to the marina. I replaced the chain plates and a second one was also badly cracked when removed it looked fine too. Crevice corrosion was the demon.

The chain plates looked beautiful no visible issue. I did the work but it still cost over $2000 but I'm a believer now.
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Old 16-03-2015, 11:14   #19
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Re: Mast broke in half

And if the rigging is the original i suspect your chainplates are toasted as well if they are OEM...just saying..
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Old 16-03-2015, 11:27   #20
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Re: Mast broke in half

Nauta54' of 1989

Standing tighing never changed, and poorly kept, though apparently still ok (dynaform)

Material for 1x19 new set is some 5000euro
But.... add cost of crane, dismasting, remounting... and it doubles up

Anyway, a due every 12th year, if you want to feel safe...and use it energically
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Old 16-03-2015, 11:38   #21
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Re: Mast broke in half

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SS, though very corrosion resistant and pretty has some serious drawbacks that don't get nearly as much attention as they should...

First of all it's not fully rust-proof unlike popular belief; it suffers from crevice corrosion. Invisible to the naked eye, but potentially devestating nonetheless. There are types of SS wire that are extremely polished to further reduce this type of corrosion, but they are expensive. Any oxygen deprevation makes this process worse.

Second, SS has very poor metal fatigue capabilities. It becomes brittle after so many load cycles. Every time you tack, the lee shrouds get slack and when you tack again get put under tension again. Do this so many thousand times and they can snap. Again, invisible to the naked eye, but a potential problem for sure.

Lastly the swageless fittings can start to form tiny cracks. They can generally be spotted during proper routine maintenance though. As can improperly swaged terminals if you know what you're looking at.

Norseman/stalock terminals are amazing, and if you have money to spend or plan on keeping the boat for another few decades (insurance companies usually stop covering standing rigging related claims when the shrouds are 10-15 years old). The wire itself is generally only half of the cost of re-rigging, so do the math. Another option is rope standing rigging, or galvanized (that's what I just got, full set all in for 400). But that's a whole other story...
If your shrouds get slack then you have insufficient static tension. What you are trying to achieve is the minimum tension to avoid ever unloading any shroud. This minimises the mast compression and ensures the mast is always over constrained.

It's easy to check by 'feeling' the shroud tension at deck level under sailing conditions.

Stainless steel is a somewhat misleading name. It is more correctly corrosion resistant. The 3xx stainless steels suffer crevice corrosion when immersed in standing sea water. Where the wire is swaged or in reusable fittings is a susceptible area. Flushing with fresh water can help as it is the electrolytic nature of sea water that allows the crevice corrosion to form.

Unfortunately you can't use any non destructive examination methods to check for crevice corrosion inside the joint. You have to replace the shroud at an appropriate service interval. 10 years is a common replacement period.

Fatigue may be an issue but will be a second order effect for properly oriented and tensioned rigging.

Filling the joint with an appropriate, non shrinking, permanently flexible caulk us giid advice.

We're currently in the process of replacing all standing rigging on our Liberty 458 with Staloks. We are also developing replacement titanium chainplates. Titanium doesn't have the ambient temperature crevice corrosion problems of stainless steel. The price difference has narrowed in recent years.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 16-03-2015, 12:34   #22
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Re: Mast broke in half

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
And if the rigging is the original i suspect your chainplates are toasted as well if they are OEM...just saying..
I had the chainplates pulled, cleaned, and inspected - all good there. Not sure if they're OEM.

When I do replace them I'll go the titanium route for sure.
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Old 16-03-2015, 13:08   #23
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Re: Mast broke in half

Who sells Titanium chainplates? I will buy them just to upgrade.
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Old 16-03-2015, 13:14   #24
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Re: Mast broke in half

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Who sells Titanium chainplates? I will buy them just to upgrade.
I've never ordered from them, but I was looking at Allied Titanium and they appear to have Valiant 40 chainplates available.
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Old 16-03-2015, 13:24   #25
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Re: Mast broke in half

I looked into Titanium chainplates when I replaced mine. I had quite an email conversation with somebody who could have supplied them. I might be able to find it. But that person suggested it was a bit more complex than it appears because of electrolysis issues. For example it was not recommended that you use stainless bolts and issues with linking to your stainless rigging. All I really remember is that in the end the issues seemed greater than the value.
Not the panacea it seemed to start with.

I have stainless stiffening/strengthening material imbedded in the knees on my Swan so I could not resolve it without considerable almost impossible replacement issues. Others like Newt's Valiant may be a bit of a different case.
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Old 16-03-2015, 13:25   #26
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Re: Mast broke in half

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Who sells Titanium chainplates? I will buy them just to upgrade.
There was an article a few years back in either Sail or CW mag about switching to titanium chainplates. The guy found titanium plate online, I forget the dimensions but it was enough for the number of chainplates he needed, at $200/each, it was enough for his needs and he had the metal shop cut/machine to size/specs. Saved a bundle by going that route instead of buying ready made stuff. He listed the places he was dealing with. If I find that issue I'll post the details. But you can probably google same article on either site.
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Old 16-03-2015, 14:57   #27
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Re: Mast broke in half

I am having the standing rigging replaced on my 1978 Bristol 35.5 for $1500 by Dutch Boat Yard, Branford, CT. Age unknown, but could be 1-2 decades old. Replacing original wire w/ same..
Cant help w/ approx. cost of mast tho..good luck.
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Old 16-03-2015, 15:38   #28
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Re: Mast broke in half

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Who sells Titanium chainplates? I will buy them just to upgrade.
I used to, when I worked for Allied Titanium, and I would highly recommend them.

Galvanic issues with Ti are pretty overblown, but I would recommend using Ti nuts and bolts on the chainplates. This way the entire system is completely corrosion proof. Once in place they will last a few thousand years give or take a few hundred. And since Ti is not subject to fatigue at these load levels, pretty much you can count on corrosion not being a problem.

From a metallurgical issue there is a bigger concern with stainless wire and an alumnium mast than Ti chainplates and stainless wire.

As for cost... If really depends. Bending Ti is tricky, so if all you have is flat plate, or gentle curve plates then it's easy and the cost will be very close to 316. If you have Chainplates with a lot of bends, and weird geometry the cost will go up faster wi Ti than with stainless.

On the flip side there is no reason to polish Ti except for cosmetics, so you can save a good bit of money going with a sandblasted finish instead of electropolishing. With stainless however it is critical to have them mirror polished before installation to limit corrosion.
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Old 16-03-2015, 16:02   #29
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Re: Mast broke in half

sheesh, those numbers make my head spin... I have learned in the process of completely refitting my boat that the commercial fishing/shipping dealers are the place to be and to stay away from anything labeled "yachting". That and industrial lifting/crane companies.

Galvanized rigging 8mm including eyes, thimbles, swages and half a meter of G70 7mm chain on every shroud = 375 for a full cutter rig.

Regular SS rig with swaged terminals would've come to 500-something I think. Had I found the courage to splice the galv rigging rather than have it swaged, the total cost would've been in the neighbourhood of 100-150 for the full rig.

Look around, call around, do it yourself and be creative. Even having a coil of wire shipped over from overseas sounds like a hell of a deal if it'd save you 4000$ over buying "yachting stays" in the US...
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