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Old 12-08-2014, 09:06   #16
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
And im glad no other manufactures follow this approach, i say it before in a old hunter topic some time agoo, this kind of rig its a Rigger nightmare and a chainplate killer, dificult to get a tight forestay tension, the prebend is insane, getting a almost perfect tunning require several trips with the bosum chair to the top diamond , its kind of a catamaran rig in a monohull with the diference than in a catamaran you have the uppers set in a wide angle respect of the mast centerline , the tension in the uppers is insane to get a tight forestay and a nice prebend, and no backstay,, anyone who experienced falling from the top of a wave know what im talking about, the downwind run is killed unless you fly a chute or a genaker , that big roachy main need to be reefed often to found a balance , mast is heavy due to thick mast profile and the boom ?' oh well heads down pls!!!!!
and i sail with this rig and i repair this kind of this rig , we dont want to see it in the rigging shop, thanks hunter is only using this weirdo thing....
Interesting.

I read this and coincidentally was talking to my rigger friend shortly there after, and mentioned your post.

He agreed with your perspective. Especially the issues of the chain plates.

That being said, and someone else has pointed this out, there does not appear to be an abnormal amount of B&R rig failures versus normal types.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:47   #17
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

After 16 years and thousands of boats if there was some design problem with using the rig Hunter would have dumped it.

It is only a problem in forums. But that I guess is just part of production boat bashing in general on them


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Old 12-08-2014, 10:11   #18
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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
After 16 years and thousands of boats if there was some design problem with using the rig Hunter would have dumped it.

It is only a problem in forums. But that I guess is just part of production boat bashing in general on them

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Not at all. We just want someone to educate us about any advantage to the rig. Can you?
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:41   #19
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
After 16 years and thousands of boats if there was some design problem with using the rig Hunter would have dumped it.

It is only a problem in forums. But that I guess is just part of production boat bashing in general on them
Think I mentioned earlier, the B&R rig, like almost everything on a boat, is a compromise. There's no free lunch. Example, get a boat with a deep draft and it will point higher but will limit access to shallow waters.

So the B&R rig I think is also a compromise, some benefits come with some limitations. From my experience (one 2 week charter on a 45' Hunter) downwind sailing was at the very least, different from sailing a standard rig.

99% of my sailing has been on boats with the main and jib roughly sharing the load. On the Hunter, the main was much larger than the jib. So sailing downwind a lot of the effort was aft which tended to push the stern around so made it a bit of work to steer. If I reefed the main to balance the effort then for the light winds we had the boat would have been under powered. Of course, being a charter boat there was only one, roller furling jib. Having a different jib or a drifter/reacher or similar might have solved that.

The other issue was the limit on how far we could ease the main. Due to the aft position of the upper shroud the sail and boom started chafing on the rig fairly soon. Even with a vang we were limited so ended up tacking down wind but then I've done that before with a standard rig as well.

Since you know the B&R rig what are your comments or recommendations in how to properly manage the sails in these situations? Other than simplifying the rig and moving wires away from the stern what additional benefits do you see from the B&R rig?
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:46   #20
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

I never realized that so many people sail DDW. So much for sailing 101

Especially on the main...
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:56   #21
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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I never realized that so many people sail DDW. So much for sailing 101

Especially on the main...
Well I never took any sailing lessons but just kind of made it up as I went along, so I'm sure I've missed a few (many?) of the finer points. So are you saying that one should never sail DDW? Why not?

I guess in lighter winds you will see a higher apparent wind and go faster if you broad reach but once wind speed reaches a certain point that isn't an issue.

Then there is the higher risk of an accidental gybe DDW but I dealt with that by rigging a pole on the jib and a vang/preventer on the main.

Sometimes cruising that was just the direction I needed to go and occasionally didn't have the luxury of altering course due to hazards.
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:11   #22
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
After 16 years and thousands of boats if there was some design problem with using the rig Hunter would have dumped it.

It is only a problem in forums. But that I guess is just part of production boat bashing in general on them
What is your problem? We are trying to have an intelligent discussion about the Hunter rig, and all you keep doing is inserting your paranoid jabs. If the rig is as great as you think it is... Please enlighten everyone on how you've solved the direct down wind sailing difficulties encountered by the rest of us using the Hunter rig, with the spreaders swept back at such an angle. Specifics please.
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:16   #23
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

Hunter I almost bought had a cruising chute, that would pretty much fix the downwind issue?

Anytime there are several models of anything available to purchase, a manufacturer will seek to find something that sets them apart from the crowd, I always assumed the B&R rig did that for Hunter.
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:20   #24
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
I never realized that so many people sail DDW. So much for sailing 101

Especially on the main...
We sail DDW all the time using a preventer on a standard rig... no problem. I believe most of the folks crossing the Atlantic and Pacific oceans do the same as they follow the trade winds. Are we supposed to take some sort of long detour instead? We try to avoid it if possible, but our destination sometimes dictates doing so. Usually in this situation, we just sail on the jib depending on the sea state and swells. If the winds are light and the sea flat.. main sail with preventer and jib.

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Old 12-08-2014, 11:28   #25
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

Long time ago i made a trip from Gran Canarias Antigua with the main reefed with a preventer and a jib set in a pole , blowing 20 something fresh tradewinds and doing a good average DDW.
Just saying...
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:59   #26
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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I never realized that so many people sail DDW. So much for sailing 101

Especially on the main...
Ahh, this old sentiment again.

Yes, DDW is virtually always the fastest way to get from point A to B, if B is directly downwind. No exceptions, unless you fly a spinnaker or sail a planing boat.
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Old 12-08-2014, 13:59   #27
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Ahh, this old sentiment again.

Yes, DDW is virtually always the fastest way to get from point A to B, if B is directly downwind. No exceptions, unless you fly a spinnaker or sail a planing boat.
I don't know where you get this, but it doesn't apply to more modern underbodies, ie faster boats. Sailing higher resulting in a higher VMG and then jibing is faster in many circumstances.
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Old 12-08-2014, 14:05   #28
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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I don't know where you get this, but it doesn't apply to more modern underbodies, ie faster boats.
Isn't that more or less what he said?

"unless you fly a spinnaker or sail a planing boat."

I generally think that a modern underbody implies a planning or semi planing hull.
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Old 12-08-2014, 14:17   #29
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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I don't know where you get this, but it doesn't apply to more modern underbodies, ie faster boats. Sailing higher resulting in a higher VMG and then jibing is faster in many circumstances.

Even more modern boats suffer because you have to head up significantly (ie >20 degrees or so) to fill the jib. I have some friends who did this analysis on a number of different keelboats using polar analyses. I don't have the numbers, but one can easily do the math on their boat. Sail DDW with poled out jib and record speed and compass heading. Then gybe the jib over, and head up onto deep reach enough to speed up and fill the jib. Record compass heading and speed. Then do the trigonometry and see which way VMG is better.

The folks who did this on their boats always found DDW was faster (I recall some of the boats to be a CS 33, C&C 35, Catalina 42, and one other)

Maybe there is a cruising boat, or even moderate race boat, that will go faster from A to B sailing jibing angles, but I doubt it unless they are flying a chute (in which case heading up a mere 5-10 degrees makes a huge difference). Again, this is mainly because you lose the sail area of the headsail behind the main until you have headed too far up to offset the speed gains. A chute obviously is different because the pole brings it out from behind the main.

Of course, the best solution is to always sail towards a destination that lies on a reach!!
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Old 12-08-2014, 14:34   #30
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Re: Marlow-Hunter Rigging.

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Not at all. We just want someone to educate us about any advantage to the rig. Can you?
I can, are you really interested?

Larger main with a longer boom, shorter mast with less weight up high. Center of movement further aft, less weather helm (for me if I have 5 degrees of rudder it means I don't have the boat balanced). The only real time get any weather helm is at 8 knots if a gust heels the boat.

Boat is easy to balance and normally sails along with little rudder and a light wheel. And I make this comparison to my last boat of a Cal-39 that always had weather helm. Heck I run around with the autopilot set on a response of 2 or 10 because don't need that much to steer straight.

Unlike a lot of boats I see sailing around with only their head sail out, I never sail without the main, because that would be a waste on a B&R. I rarely roll up the head sail and will reef the main at 15 knots without any lost of boat speed.

Aft sheeting on the main using the Hunter cockpit bridge; a lot less effort needed to crank it in and it even uses a smaller winch.

Just a great rig that is easy to balance and easy to sail. I just fail to understand what more people want of their rig. The rig does all Hunter says it will do, but keep in the end that they didn't come up with it and don't build it as it is a Selden rig. Hunter just had the guts to use it!

Some of the "negatives" people talk about:

1- No back stay - so what! The rigs aren't falling down and by not having the backstay in the way is how you get the big shorter main. And even more room in the cockpit.

2 - can not let the sail out down wind - just plain wrong and BS! The main has wear patches on the main to allow you to do that if you what to. I sail mine downwind and even wing-on-wing regularly (people say it is not possible, must be them). I don't have an issue putting the main on the spreaders if needed to allow this and yet still have the original 13 year sail with the original wear patches that haven't been replaced. But I don't make it a habit of sailing deep downwind as I know for a fact that the boat is faster sailing off the wind. And yes I have a spinnaker and fly it!

3. loose forestay - that's by design and if you don't believe me look it up yourself in the tuning instructions from Selden. Bothered me originally that the forestay was loose, but in the end I decided the designers of the rig knew more than me. There isn't a need to crank down on a backstay to keep the foresail shape because the sail is cut for a loose forestay and the mast already has a lot of rake.

The only real difference between the B&R rig and lots of other rigs with swept back spreaders is that it has the tripod design where the mast and side stays are doing the support of the rig so you don't need a backstay or a tight forestay. Some rake is lost for those with furling masts, but if someone has a furling mast they are making that trade-off.

The real issue is that people don't learn to sail the boat the way it is designed. It isn't the rigs fault if you try to sail it as a conventional rig and it doesn't perform. Just as it isn't a modern boat's fault if you try to sail it like a boat of yester year that had a lot of fore/aft hull overhang as you still think you need to put the rail in the water.

I don't consider myself a great sail trimmer. But I just sail my B&R rig the way it and the boat as a whole likes to be sailed. If others can not do the same it isn't the rigs fault, it's their fault!

So in the end, if you have experience on a B&R rig and couldn't get it to sail good then it was you! Or at the least you can not sail as well as Fat Don!
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