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Old 11-10-2014, 03:00   #1
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Main Sail Runner (or not)

Hi all,

I have a steel rigged ketch which has a main sail runner across the deck before the mizzen. My boiler maker told me it was too badly rusted to repair and recommended replace it with stainless. But my sail guy had a look and suggested cutting it off as I don't need it in a non racing yacht. So, that's what I've done today. It's certainly given me more room.

I'm planning in rigging the boom from the centre lug which I left about 80mm off. The sail guy however was talking about installing two plates with pulling in the side of the deck and setting up some kind of triangle pullers.

Anyone suggest what he's planning?

What's the disadvantage of not having a runner?
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Old 11-10-2014, 03:36   #2
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Hi all,

I have a steel rigged ketch which has a main sail runner across the deck before the mizzen. My boiler maker told me it was too badly rusted to repair and recommended replace it with stainless. But my sail guy had a look and suggested cutting it off as I don't need it in a non racing yacht. So, that's what I've done today. It's certainly given me more room.

I'm planning in rigging the boom from the centre lug which I left about 80mm off. The sail guy however was talking about installing two plates with pulling in the side of the deck and setting up some kind of triangle pullers.

Anyone suggest what he's planning?

What's the disadvantage of not having a runner?
Rustic Charm,

Maybe you can get your sailmaker to make you some sketches so you can visualize what he's suggesting. Sometimes, sailmakers know a lot about rigging--I'd think Steve Walker does--but sometimes riggers know more.

There are riggers (at least around Hobart) who understand you want to keep expenses down, and who have enough knowledge to offer sensible solutions.

Ann
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Old 11-10-2014, 03:40   #3
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

runner = traveller.

You are talking about replacing it with "triangular sheeting". That would be a better solution IMNSHO that a single centre point since it lets you use the mainsheet to control boom lift in a similar way to what a traveller does.
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Old 11-10-2014, 03:54   #4
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Rustic Charm,

Maybe you can get your sailmaker to make you some sketches so you can visualize what he's suggesting. Sometimes, sailmakers know a lot about rigging--I'd think Steve Walker does--but sometimes riggers know more.

There are riggers (at least around Hobart) who understand you want to keep expenses down, and who have enough knowledge to offer sensible solutions.

Ann
My error, he's my rigger, not sail guy. Some sketches are a good idea. I'll ask him to do that.
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Old 11-10-2014, 03:57   #5
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

Dual main sheeting (or triangle sheeting?) is certainly an option. You will have basically two main sheets. The windward mainsheet is always the one in use. This allows you to position the boom for correct sheeting angle.

You would use the boom vang to adjust leech and sail shape controlling the boom height.

You basically are trading off having two sets of mainsheet tackle vs. the cost of a new traveler.

Single centerpoint sheeting is also an option and on a cruising boat is quite simple. In this case the vang controls the sail shape until the mainsheet is drawn in near the centerline of the boat. Then the mainsheet is hauling the leech closed.

The main problem with this would be when you are close hauled and want to twist off the main sail. Releasing the mainsheet will allow the boom to drop to leward. With a traveler you can untwist the main by releasing vang and mainsheet and haul the boom to windward with the traveler.

With dual sheeting you can release the vang and haul to windward with less "downward" pull on the boom as the sheeting point is up near the windward side.

If it were mine I would put a new traveler on becuase I like the increased control options the traveler provides but either of the other two options are workable if you are on a budget.

Dual sheeting provides the second most control of sail shape and boom angle.
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Old 11-10-2014, 03:58   #6
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
runner = traveller.

You are talking about replacing it with "triangular sheeting". That would be a better solution IMNSHO that a single centre point since it lets you use the mainsheet to control boom lift in a similar way to what a traveller does.
Can you explain this a little more. How does the mainsheet get involved?
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:13   #7
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Dual main sheeting (or triangle sheeting?) is certainly an option. You will have basically two main sheets. The windward mainsheet is always the one in use. This allows you to position the boom for correct sheeting angle.

You would use the boom vang to adjust leech and sail shape controlling the boom height.

You basically are trading off having two sets of mainsheet tackle vs. the cost of a new traveler.

Single centerpoint sheeting is also an option and on a cruising boat is quite simple. In this case the vang controls the sail shape until the mainsheet is drawn in near the centerline of the boat. Then the mainsheet is hauling the leech closed.

The main problem with this would be when you are close hauled and want to twist off the main sail. Releasing the mainsheet will allow the boom to drop to leward. With a traveler you can untwist the main by releasing vang and mainsheet and haul the boom to windward with the traveler.

With dual sheeting you can release the vang and haul to windward with less "downward" pull on the boom as the sheeting point is up near the windward side.

If it were mine I would put a new traveler on becuase I like the increased control options the traveler provides but either of the other two options are workable if you are on a budget.

Dual sheeting provides the second most control of sail shape and boom angle.
Thanks for this. I had to think it through but I think I've got it.

Cost is not too much of a worry. The old 'traveller' is fine, just needs a new stainless mount. But I like the room I have now I've cut it off. For this summer I'll use the single pint in the centre and aim at putting in the two points for the triangle set up he's got planned. I'll get some experience then with both set ups.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:17   #8
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Cost is not too much of a worry. The old 'traveller' is fine, just needs a new stainless mount. But I like the room I have now I've cut it off. For this summer I'll use the single pint in the centre and aim at putting in the two points for the triangle set up he's got planned. I'll get some experience then with both set ups.
Given the original problem of corroded fittings, if you are going over to single point sheeting, make sure that the vang attachments are in good condition because you are going to be relying on it much more for sail trim than when using a traveller.
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Old 11-10-2014, 09:22   #9
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

The dual main sheeting setup is what out aloha 32 is equipped with. I'm not sure what other boats came that way, but that gives you one boat you could look up if you wanted a visual reference on the setup.

I thought it would be odd to use, but actually got used to it pretty quickly. I still think I like the traveler setup better, but not enough to change it on our boat.
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Old 11-10-2014, 11:20   #10
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

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The dual main sheeting setup is what out aloha 32 is equipped with. I'm not sure what other boats came that way, but that gives you one boat you could look up if you wanted a visual reference on the setup.

I thought it would be odd to use, but actually got used to it pretty quickly. I still think I like the traveler setup better, but not enough to change it on our boat.
Our Niagara 35 also has dual sheets. It works fine.

I wouldn't do a single sheet as you can't get the boom on center without closing the leech right up.

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Old 11-10-2014, 15:17   #11
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

Many modern boats are eliminating the traveler altogether. A boom vang alone does all that a traveler should do (windward traveler positioning produces more heel and less forward velocity vector than centerline sheeting).
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Old 11-10-2014, 15:58   #12
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

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Originally Posted by blinkerfluid View Post
The dual main sheeting setup is what out aloha 32 is equipped with. I'm not sure what other boats came that way, but that gives you one boat you could look up if you wanted a visual reference on the setup.

I thought it would be odd to use, but actually got used to it pretty quickly. I still think I like the traveler setup better, but not enough to change it on our boat.
I can't find a picture of any 32 Aloha with the boom set up. I can find a sail boat with a triangle setup half way along a boom, that may work for me. It would certainly replace the four sheets I have on my traveller to just two, which I like the idea of.

Why do you like the traveller set up more?
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Old 11-10-2014, 16:01   #13
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

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Many modern boats are eliminating the traveler altogether. A boom vang alone does all that a traveler should do (windward traveler positioning produces more heel and less forward velocity vector than centerline sheeting).
My boom vang would not pull the boom down enough to tighten the leech. Not without a winch on it anyway. The point of mine seems to be enough to tighten by hand the boom until the traveller takes the slack.
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Old 11-10-2014, 16:34   #14
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

Rustic Charm - Whatever sheeting solution you choose, be especially cautious when welding a stainless steel attachment to your mild steel deck. As I'm sure you're aware, a mainsheet transfers a lot of shock loading to the boat, and this is going to place strains on the weld that could lead to fatigue failure faster that if identical metals were used.
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Old 11-10-2014, 16:38   #15
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Re: Main sail Runner (or not)

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Rustic Charm - Whatever sheeting solution you choose, be especially cautious when welding a stainless steel attachment to your mild steel deck. As I'm sure you're aware, a mainsheet transfers a lot of shock loading to the boat, and this is going to place strains on the weld that could lead to fatigue failure faster that if identical metals were used.
Thanks, my welder is conscious of that. He uses very expensive rods for joining the two. All my chain plates have now been replaced with stainless, but welded with these special rods.
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