Main Sail Runner (or not)

[blinkerfluid]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I can't find a picture of any 32 Aloha with the boom set up. I can find a sail boat with a triangle setup half way along a boom, that may work for me. It would certainly replace the four sheets I have on my traveller to just two, which I like the idea of.

Why do you like the traveller set up more?

If you're working up wind and have a traveller you can set the sheet tension and vang for the correct sail shape, then use the traveller to set the correct angle to the wind. When you tack, the sail shape stays the same and you just slide the traveller to the new wind angle.

With a dual sheet setup, you can have both sheets working together to get the right sail shape and angle to the wind, however when you tack you have to completely reset both sheets as one will be set at a different length than the other.

It's not a huge deal, but that's the reason I like the traveller better. I'm on my boat now, so I'll see if I can get a picture of the sheet arrangement.

[blinkerfluid]

Here's a picture of our main sheet setup.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by bmz

Many modern boats are eliminating the traveler altogether. A boom vang alone does all that a traveler should do (windward traveler positioning produces more heel and less forward velocity vector than centerline sheeting).

I'd love to hear more about this. The vang and the traveler are completely different controls and do completely different things.

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

My boom vang would not pull the boom down enough to tighten the leech. Not without a winch on it anyway. The point of mine seems to be enough to tighten by hand the boom until the traveller takes the slack.

Depending on what you decide for the sail contraols you should talk to your rigger friend about the vang. I suspect your vang is plenty strong enough to do what it is designed for - controlling the boom lift - but it may not have the purchase, as you note, to overcome loads by hand.

My vag is a 4:1 purchse and higher purchases are not uncommon. It is also not uncommon to route the vang control to the coach roof winch.

Originally Posted by blinkerfluid

If you're working up wind and have a traveller you can set the sheet tension and vang for the correct sail shape, then use the traveller to set the correct angle to the wind. When you tack, the sail shape stays the same and you just slide the traveller to the new wind angle.

With a dual sheet setup, you can have both sheets working together to get the right sail shape and angle to the wind, however when you tack you have to completely reset both sheets as one will be set at a different length than the other.

It's not a huge deal, but that's the reason I like the traveller better. I'm on my boat now, so I'll see if I can get a picture of the sheet arrangement.

This is s good descripiton of how the traveler, mainsheet and vang work together for sail shape and control.

[Garrettw]

Originally Posted by blinkerfluid

If you're working up wind and have a traveller you can set the sheet tension and vang for the correct sail shape, then use the traveller to set the correct angle to the wind. When you tack, the sail shape stays the same and you just slide the traveller to the new wind angle.



With a dual sheet setup, you can have both sheets working together to get the right sail shape and angle to the wind, however when you tack you have to completely reset both sheets as one will be set at a different length than the other.



It's not a huge deal, but that's the reason I like the traveller better. I'm on my boat now, so I'll see if I can get a picture of the sheet arrangement.

If you are going through the trouble of rigging up a triangular setup with dual sheets, I think you might as well do a dual ended, single sheet; one to each side of the cockpit. This would eliminate what you are talking about and also allow for sheet adjustment from either side of the boat.

I have such a setup on my boat although I still find it inferior to a good traveller setup. If I want to really crank in the boom for close sailing, the action of tightening in the main sheet(s) also pulls down on the boom as a result of simple force vectors. I have to resist this using more topping lift if I am wanting to twist off the sail. While this mostly does the trick, it puts tremendous forces on the lines, fittings and boom. My last boat had a traveller and I could just back the car to windward to get the boom to centerline and didn't have to use the topping lift at all. In fact, with a rigid, spring loaded vang, I never used the topping lift, ever.


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[StuM]

I've never used a topping lift for boom control other than when putting in a reef and when dropping the main. I don't consider it a trimming device in any shape or form.

[bmz]

"My boom vang would not pull the boom down enough to tighten the leech" The only time you should want a "tight" leech is is when you are on the wind and the main sheet pulls straight down, and fully tightens the leech (together with the leech line).
Ex-Cal: " The vang and the traveler are completely different controls and do completely different things." What do you do with a traveler that you can't do with a vang?

[bmz]

"If you're working up wind and have a traveller you can set the sheet tension and vang for the correct sail shape, then use the traveller to set the correct angle to the wind. When you tack, the sail shape stays the same and you just slide the traveller to the new wind angle."
I have found that without a traveler, when you set your vang for correct sail shape off the wind, it maintains the correct sail shape when you sheet in for upwind sailing. When you tack, the sail shape remains the same without ANY adjustments. Using a traveler simply complicates everything.

[Garrettw]

Originally Posted by StuM

I've never used a topping lift for boom control other than when putting in a reef and when dropping the main. I don't consider it a trimming device in any shape or form.

Probably has a lot to do with how powerful the spring is in your vang strut. Mine is easily compressed when I sheet in hard. I have no recourse if I want to twist off. Also, I'm a little fussy about sail trim so if there's a line tied to it, I'm using it! I'd mess with my anchor rode if I thought I could get a tenth of a knot.


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[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by blinkerfluid

If you're working up wind and have a traveller you can set the sheet tension and vang for the correct sail shape, then use the traveller to set the correct angle to the wind. When you tack, the sail shape stays the same and you just slide the traveller to the new wind angle.

With a dual sheet setup, you can have both sheets working together to get the right sail shape and angle to the wind, however when you tack you have to completely reset both sheets as one will be set at a different length than the other.

It's not a huge deal, but that's the reason I like the traveller better. I'm on my boat now, so I'll see if I can get a picture of the sheet arrangement.

Most of the time, I have the boom on centerline when I'm beating (unless there's a whole lot of wind, which isn't common where I am).

If the boom is on centerline, then the dual sheets are super convenient. You set the two sheets to have the tension you need for the right sail twist, then never touch them again. No need to pull the traveler up every time you tack.

Also, in light wind and swell, the boom doesn't bang around as long as it's located somewhere between the two sheets. They act like a preventer (also nice at anchor).

Of course, in heavy wind with the boom dropped, you will need to mess with both sheets when you tack which is tougher than just the traveler. In my case, I find this to be the small minority of the time, though.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by Garrettw

If you are going through the trouble of rigging up a triangular setup with dual sheets, I think you might as well do a dual ended, single sheet; one to each side of the cockpit. This would eliminate what you are talking about and also allow for sheet adjustment from either side of the boat.

I have such a setup on my boat although I still find it inferior to a good traveller setup. If I want to really crank in the boom for close sailing, the action of tightening in the main sheet(s) also pulls down on the boom as a result of simple force vectors. I have to resist this using more topping lift if I am wanting to twist off the sail. While this mostly does the trick, it puts tremendous forces on the lines, fittings and boom. My last boat had a traveller and I could just back the car to windward to get the boom to centerline and didn't have to use the topping lift at all. In fact, with a rigid, spring loaded vang, I never used the topping lift, ever.


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This is a very odd set-up. It seems equivalent to a centerline sheet to me. As you point out, the problem with this is that you can't both have the boom on center and the leach twisted off at the same time. With dual sheets this is quite easy without messing with topping lifts (can't imagine that works too well).

You need to have two controls. Either two sheets or a sheet and traveler. One continuous sheet doesn't allow you to control both dimensions.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by bmz

"My boom vang would not pull the boom down enough to tighten the leech" The only time you should want a "tight" leech is is when you are on the wind and the main sheet pulls straight down, and fully tightens the leech (together with the leech line).
Ex-Cal: " The vang and the traveler are completely different controls and do completely different things." What do you do with a traveler that you can't do with a vang?

The vang controls sail shape off the wind. The sheet controls sail shape on the wind. The traveler controls sail position.

You can "vang sheet" (which I've been known to do) where you use the vang upwind, but whether that's a good idea depends a bit on your boom design. If you vang sheet, then you're using the vang for sail shape all the time, and you can then use the main sheet for sail position. It sounds like this is what you do.

However, if you want to get the boom on center, you're still going to need to move the traveler up or else the sheet will close the leech.

[Rustic Charm]

I didn't realise the topping lift was used on a regular basis. I thought it was just used to hold the boom from falling on the deck?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I didn't realise the topping lift was used on a regular basis. I thought it was just used to hold the boom from falling on the deck?

That's all I use it for

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by StuM

That's all I use it for

Good. I don't feel quite so silly now.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by blinkerfluid

Here's a picture of our main sheet setup.

I don't think I thanked you for the picture.

thank you.

What are the springy things right on the bottom attached to the deck called?