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Old 14-06-2016, 17:03   #31
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
... splice the jax in a Crescent Shape, starting at about 70% of the way towards the boom's aft end...
Can you explain, or perhaps show a diagram?
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Old 14-06-2016, 20:25   #32
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

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Originally Posted by nigelmercier View Post
Can you explain, or perhaps show a diagram?
Done right, the shape is the same as the moon in said phase. A concave arc from the 2/3 point of the boom, up to the lowest set of spreaders.
Much like the shape formed by an anchor chain's catenary, when it's under no load.


Lowering a mainsail at days end, sans lazy jacks, or any other sail handling system, shouldn't create any problems at all. Yes the sail will spill off the boom to one side, with some of it landing on the cabin top. Just lower it on the side of your boat which doesn't get tied to the dock, so that it's not underfoot when tying her up.
You can then tidy up the main after the boat's properly secured.

This shouldn't present anyone with problems when they go to dock the boat. Other than that you have to lean off to the side a bit to see around the pile of sail. Folks have been docking in exactly this manner for many decades without any issues, & still dock this way today on many/most boats.
I even routinely did it solo, with the 450sqft, bolt roped main on my 42'er. And with a bolt roped sail, the Whole thing lands on the deck once it's lowered. As there's nothing connecting it to the spar once you drop it.
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Old 14-06-2016, 21:03   #33
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Keep my Lazy jacks?

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Originally Posted by dkchen View Post
What doyou guys think of the strong track system? Is there a way to make raising the sail smoother?

Yes, smoother. But traditional slides with lots of mclube applied frequently is nearly as smooth and much cheaper.

And +++1 on autopilot if you cruise with kids as I do.


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Old 14-06-2016, 21:18   #34
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

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Originally Posted by dkchen View Post
Thanks for the picture. I'll try it out. Something like this will be easy for me to explain to someone really quickly.
Works well enough. As I said I start it and finish it differently from the diagram. It uses an awful lot of line. Probably start of with a peice about twice the boom length.

Its not as secure as normal gaskets. But it is very neat how it unravels so easily. And once you get used to it it is very quick to tie and untie.

Just make sure the long gasket itself doesn't fall overboard and foul the prop! Might want to learn the gasket coil. Or just set it up so it can be undone completely and stowed in a locker.
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Old 14-06-2016, 22:03   #35
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkchen View Post
What doyou guys think of the strong track system? Is there a way to make raising the sail smoother?
You can add track systems, & even full battens, to most any main... at a starting price of about $5k (& topping out at 3x said figure) on that sized boat. And you may be spending $ to fix problems which don't really exist, while at the same time creating new ones.

If you go to a Strong Track, it won't make things much easier, really. Assuming a non full battened main. But it'll add a couple of feet to the height of the main when it's stacked atop the boom. Which often makes attaching the halyard to the sail much tougher. And necessitates the addition of mast steps in order to be able to do so. As well as a new, bigger, sail cover.

Plus, you have to take the sail to the sailmaker to get the new hardware installed for the track system, onto it. Ditto on adding batten pockets, if you're adding full battens at the same time. Etc., etc.


My personal preference on track systems is the Antal setup, if I can scrape up the coin. As you get a low stack height, & the cars have zero moving parts (bearings). Unlike most of Harken's. And I'm a rediculously die hard Harken worshiper.... for (mostly) good reasons. However, I'd prefer not to have a dozen or two sets of bearings up where I can't monitor them. Ergo, Antal.

But, to do an install right with one of the latter two, you really need to take the stick out. And if you're not sharp on both tools AND boats/rigging, hire a rigger to assemble it as well.


PS: OP/Young Knight, your new guru is a gent. named Nigel Calder. Buy, & or read everything of his which you can find, in order to get smart on shipboard systems.
Here's an article of his which is a fav of mine http://www.cruisingworld.com/how/refit-reality-check
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Old 15-06-2016, 05:57   #36
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

Yes! Auto pilot can be your best bud when raising and lowering sails!
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Old 15-06-2016, 07:33   #37
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

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Old 15-06-2016, 08:03   #38
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

Snowpetrel has it right! He hasn't said so explicitly, so I will: Before you spend bux on all the fancy doo-dads advocated by so many LEARN TO SAIL!

There is NO reason that you cannot hoist a 350 foot main in 2 minutes, and bring 'er down in the same amount of time, PROVIDED you eschew all the fancy, complicated and expensive doo-dads in favour of doing it the old-fashioned way.

Doing it the old-fashioned way will cost you nothing and make you a better sailor :-)!

When you've become a good sailor and you no longer need to, or feel like, asking advice you will be in a position to consider seriously what "labour saving devices" you might like. But for now - learn to handle your canvas!

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Old 15-06-2016, 08:11   #39
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

I installed a Dutchmen system for "sail flaking" and it's a plus for reefing as well. It did reqeuire a sailmaker to add "stuff" and grommets to the sail... not a major expense. The system works well.

I'm on my 3rd main and the last 2 were full batten using the existing in mast track. The alteration to the main is not as un attractive as the lazy jacks from an aesthetic POV.. Laxy Jacks do nothing for reefing. Maintenance of the Dutchman is easy and inexpensive... monofilament replacement every few years. Sail cover modification involves a few zippers.

If you are raising and lowering and stowing your sail a lot.... get a system which is simple and reliable.

Aesthetics should be a consideration... but unfortunately this is arbitrary!

Raise the sail using an AP making little to no way dead to wind... or with a person at the helm.

You don't have to go forward usually to deal with the sail... only perhaps straighten out some of the flakes and stow the reefing lines in the folds.

I now use a Milwaukee with a winch bit to raise the main from a cockpit winch where I can observe the hoist, and the wind angle and control the AP's heading.

With the wife... in moderate conditions.... she will go forward and assist the Dman in the flaking... but it's not really necessary. If it's bouncy I go forward and let the AP steer.

This a very system and I've had it for more than 25 years...
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Old 15-06-2016, 08:13   #40
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

would disagree with Trentepied's post about the 2 minute issue. Yes, in flat seas and calm winds; but no in 25 knot winds or when you have to hold on in 12-18 foot seas. Yes a 350 s.f. sail is small, but also for a small boat. Not easy standing up there by the mast and holding on while reefing.

Does that make one a better sailor? Our old schooner did not have winches except for the anchor. Installing winches became a big issue: real sailors do not need winches.

Remember in my intro engineering class the issue whether slide rulers would be allowed or not. Real engineers do not need slide rulers. Same with a lot of things. New technology does not make you a lesser anything. Just means you're smarter.
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Old 15-06-2016, 09:06   #41
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

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Get a Dutchman flanking system and you'll not have the lazy-jack issue at all. Once adjusted, the sail flakes neatly every time.

Matt
I wish! Been screwing around with mine for 5 years
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Old 15-06-2016, 09:28   #42
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

Hi, Reed :-)

Yep - false analogies are always handy ;-0)!

And the slip-stick: I musta been all of seven years old when I was upbraided by my Old Man because I'd answered incorrectly that "two by two equals four" in response to an early slip-stick exercise. "My boy", said he, " two by two equals APPROXIMATELY four!" That is a lesson all engineers - and accountants - had best learn early :-)


But seriously: Our friend is a self-confessed noob. We were all there once. He is not likely to go out in 40 knots of wind or seas as high as a two story house, and if forty knots arrives while he IS out, then the old advice applies: "Reef early, reef often!". And THEN he would be well served by being able to get his main down (or reefed) in two minutes flat - singlehanded, without benefit of gee-gaws :-)

Please don't overlook my comment that FIRST you learn to handle your canvas the old-fashioned way. THEN you can consider what new-fangled gee-gaws MIGHT serve your purpose. You are in the hard-won position of being able to think constructively about what suits YOUR style of sailing. Our purpose here should be to help our friend to take the baby steps that eventually will take him to as enviable a place :-)

Salut

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Old 17-06-2016, 15:37   #43
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Re: Keep my Lazy jacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Done right, the shape is the same as the moon in [Crescent] phase. A concave arc from the 2/3 point of the boom, up to the lowest set of spreaders.
Much like the shape formed by an anchor chain's catenary, when it's under no load...
I'm beginning to get the idea (the crescent moon is a pair of arcs, the chain is a parabola) but I don't get how to achieve it.
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