Jordan Series Drogue Cone Shape?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Hello YPSILANTI,

Here are the measurements for the template I made for our drogue. This template allows for a 1/4" hem in the leading edge, which is important. Our first JSD was made from a Sailrite kit and many of the cones disintegrated after only a few hours deployment. I would use at least 4oz cloth with at least a 1/4" hem (more would not hurt).

When we rebuilt our drogue we used the old line, which is nylon double braid since we already had it. If I were building from scratch I would use Dyneema. Our drogue is 150 cones, your Voyage 50 would use a similar, if not larger amount. The finished drogue is very heavy and bulky, much heavier still when wet. Dyneema avoids both these issues and you do not need the stretch of nylon. You tie a figure 8 in each of the cone straps so pulling out of the dyneema would not be an issue.

Excellent post! Thanks for the input.

Jim

[wsmurdoch]

One of the things that I noticed when I made my series drogue is that cones cut with with the seam edges on the bias of the fabric feel different from cones cut with their seam edges cut along the warp and fill. The stretch properties of cones cut with the two different fabric orientations are different.

[Boston Blackie]

John Harries has a great Ebook update on recent issues with JSD rapid cone deterioration and design refinements on www.AttainableAdventureCruising.com. That and a lot more well worth the price of admission to the site if you sail offshore.

[buzzstar]

Just to overemphasize a post by Ann T. Cate: Strength and durability of the seams is vital. Definitely a zig zag stitch, but I also wonder if a sealant or tape over the seams would be beneficial. A fairly recent topic here was a solo sailor out of Vancouver, or nearby, who was starting a circumnavigation, but immediately ran into some rough weather, and one of the outcomes was her JSD sort of "shredded" at the seams (my own word, not necessarily absolutely accurate). BTW, based on another comment about size: probably you can increase the size, but you may lose the utility and relative ease of handling. I do not really know as I've never deployed a JSD or so far even owned one.

[TeddyDiver]

As an occasional sewer I'd never try to sew a cone out of one piece of fabric. At least Three pieces preferably four the orientation of the fabric generally warp being stronger to more stressed direction. Additional longitudinal sews along all seams, zigzag alone won't last long as it doesn't have any longitudinal strength..


BR Teddy

[Jim Cate]

Re shredding, etc: I wonder if the Max-Jacket stuff (for chafe resistance in cordage) that Uncivilized is always recommending would be useful to reinforce the edges of the cones or the seams?

And for Teddy, when one is faced with manufacturing well over a hundred cones for a medium size JSD, the prospect of having to piece together each one from several bits is truly daunting. I believe that simply using a more robust cloth than light spinnaker stuff will cure the problem. Also having enough cones to really slow the boat down to the design speed (1-2 knots) will reduce the tendency to shred. This was demonstrated in the little drogue we built to keep the dinghy from surfing whilst being towed. When we towed it at normal speeds or ~ 6 knots the nylon cones were rapidly destroyed. the ones we made from Herculite have lasted decades; that material would be far too heavy for convenience in a full size JSD, but perhaps something like 4 ounce dacron would be a good compromise.

Jim

[kmacdonald]

You can buy the cones for about what it would cost to buy the materials.
100 SERIES DROGUE CONES SEA ANCHOR, DESIGNER DON JORDAN | eBay
This is how they are made:
• The cones are made of a 7.2 ounce yellow polyester (Dacron), with 3 x 12mm tapes sewn to the outside. These are the toughest cones on the market.
• They have have a 5" mouth and 1.5" exit. The mouth and exit are re-enforced with tape sewn all around.
• Attachment to the nylon rode is easily achieved by threading the tapes through the double braid rope. Building your own Series Drogue is a straightforward task. By purchasing these ready made cones, you will

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And for Teddy, when one is faced with manufacturing well over a hundred cones for a medium size JSD, the prospect of having to piece together each one from several bits is truly daunting. I believe that simply using a more robust cloth than light spinnaker stuff will cure the problem...

Daunting, yes but it pays. It's just the fact fabric doesn't have any diagonal strentgh robust or not. zigzag on the diagonally cut fabric

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Re shredding, etc: I wonder if the Max-Jacket stuff (for chafe resistance in cordage) that Uncivilized is always recommending would be useful to reinforce the edges of the cones or the seams?... Jim

I've done lots of testing of Maxijack re. chafe, and I'm pretty use it won't work at all for this. Rope and cloth are different, and it does not work with sail cloth.

For existing JSDs, I bet Sikaflex 291 or 3M5200 would work well. They adhere very well to sailcloth and synthetic canvas.

[kmacdonald]

Are we really going to overthink something so simple? Dust off your wallets and go buy the cones.

If you want to save some money , get creative with the rope you use. Climbing rope and arborist rope may work and be a little cheaper.

[knockabout]

you need webbing loops at spacings along the cone and the webbing straps full length of the cone / we have split a factory bourke brand drogue length wise and also split a unknown brand ebay drogue length wise / they were both rated at boat length twice this one / we had them on 150 metre lengths of 13mm 3 strand poly floating anchor rope / the new unused replacement drogue is attached to that same rope and stowed in the lazarette / we learnt from watching a drogue being deployed accidentally (a wave washed a cray pot float off a 40ft fishing boat which then paid out a long length of line then became a drogue) the skipper and crew first looked under the boat for something slowing them down then noticed the line towing behind them / after some experimenting a styrene anchor float on 150 metres of 12mm 3 strand poly anchor rope with a mooring swivel between the float and the rope became standard equipment for high speed drogue use in a large following sea (it works well) that is also now stowed in the lazarette with the hope it won't be needed /some diy drogues are made from heavy sail cloth with reinforced clews sewn in to take the lines

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I've done lots of testing of Maxijack re. chafe, and I'm pretty use it won't work at all for this. Rope and cloth are different, and it does not work with sail cloth.

For existing JSDs, I bet Sikaflex 291 or 3M5200 would work well. They adhere very well to sailcloth and synthetic canvas.

Thanks for that, mate. Saves some experimentation.

Sounded good when I said it fast!

Jim

[Bulawayo]

Go to Ace Sails website and I believe you'll find all your answers there. Good luck.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I've never tried Maxi Jacket on cloth, however sailcloth is loaded with resin, waxy resin at that. So I'm thinking that even something that's semi-adhesive like Maxi Jacket would have trouble penetrating/saturating it enough to do much good. And when repairing sails with 5200 there's a bit of cleaning type prep involved. To strip off some of the resins maybe? Though it does work on sails, even the few laminates I've tried it on.

As to it's dealing with the extreme number of shock load, flex cycles on a JSD cone, I've no idea if it would be up to that. And I'd not want to bet someone else's ass on it, let alone my own.

Then there's the aspect that sewing through any adhesives that are even remotely strong enough to bond sail cloth is a bitch, to put it mildly. And since the layer of goop holding 2 pieces of cloth together won't exactly be what you'd call even, in terms of thickness, it'd play havoc with your stitch tension (I think). And evenly tensioned stitching makes for strong stitching, so...

Perhaps someone's up for trying it out & reporting back? Or paying for the tooling costs to setup equipment to make one-piece, seamless cones (woven). That or "seamed" ones where cloth is fitted onto mandrels/molds, & then a durable, flexible resin is injected in, & cured under heat & pressure. So that when cured the entire cone, body & tapes, form one monocoque structure.
Something akin to "string sails", though some R&D would need to go into both the materials, & autoclaving, to ensure that the final product would survive 5 days of being towed through a named storm or cane.


EDIT: I'm almost certain that it's the resin in the cloth breaking down & being washed out, that's contributing to the failures/shredding of the cones in question. As having seen firsthand, what towing a sail for all of 2nm does to the cloth... well, it ain't pretty. And this was new 5oz dacron.
Think about how stiff & slippery new dacron sails are as compared to ones that have seen only 100hrs of use are. Thanks to the flexing they see, & subsequently some of the resin being shaken out of them.

[buzzstar]

What I get from the various negative posts is you cannot make your own JSD and expect the panels/cones to last except in a placid sea, when you do not need it. I suspect the reality is different, and you can, even if it is one heck of a project with obstacles to be overcome and experiences shared. Maybe UV cured adhesive applied after sewing? How about sewing through something like Gorilla Tape or...? These are not answers, just questions or ideas. For those, such as myself, lacking in fine motor skills, eBay or direct purchase from a quality source might be the way to go, but I have to admit I sometimes even try to improve on quality products.