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Old 03-08-2014, 13:33   #16
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I generally worry more about the deck than I do the cleats. I have seen many boats with just washers on the back of 12" cleats.

Yup. That's why I was reattaching this one. Same with the bowsprit thing. Bow chock didn't even get washers.


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Old 03-08-2014, 13:34   #17
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

Amazing I lived at anchor all last summer in ignorant bliss.


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Old 03-08-2014, 14:29   #18
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Re: Is this crevice corrosion or a bad casting?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Hey Del, In my mind most Atwood stuff is cheap pot metal hardware. That aside.. Do they actually make these Herreschoff cleats in the USA? I would seriously doubt that ....but it would be good to know if anyone knows!
Attwood claims theirs are 316.
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Old 03-08-2014, 14:55   #19
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

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Amazing I lived at anchor all last summer in ignorant bliss.


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Good morning Sully,

Consider it a warning. Had it broken under load at night, it would have made enough noise to wake most people, but it might have been a hard situation to deal with. You might play out a successful scenario for that, to have as part of your already-thought-out ways of dealing with *stuff* when it happens.

Find yourself some better cleats.

Ann
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Old 03-08-2014, 15:38   #20
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

I passed on those as a choice for cleats.
Went for this style with bolts through the body.
Any deficiencies experienced with this style?
All A4. could be toe-brakers, but what cleat isn't?

Ummm, might dispense with the penny washer & use cont. plate.
Also, Not destined as mooring main cleat, rather for-aft tether to dock.
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Old 03-08-2014, 15:45   #21
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

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I generally worry more about the deck than I do the cleats. I have seen many boats with just washers on the back of 12" cleats.
We had a member of this forum post pictures of the hole in his deck that the forward cleat made. It ripped out when he was being towed.
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Old 03-08-2014, 15:50   #22
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

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I passed on those as a choice for cleats.
Went for this style with bolts through the body.
Any deficiencies experienced with this style?
All A4. could be toe-brakers, but what cleat isn't?

Ummm, might dispense with the penny washer & use cont. plate.
Also, Not destined as mooring main cleat, rather for-aft tether to dock.

Seems like a lot of leverage up high like that?


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Old 03-08-2014, 15:52   #23
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

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Good morning Sully,



Consider it a warning. Had it broken under load at night, it would have made enough noise to wake most people, but it might have been a hard situation to deal with. You might play out a successful scenario for that, to have as part of your already-thought-out ways of dealing with *stuff* when it happens.



Find yourself some better cleats.



Ann

For the record I wasn't being flip. When I started pulling all this stuff apart I was a bit horrified. But had no problems with it when using it. I know the boat a lot better now.


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Old 03-08-2014, 16:08   #24
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

I would be most concerned about making sure the bolt or machine screw matches the profile of the mounting hole.

It's hard to really assess the failure mode with seeing the cleat in detail. Is the fracture crystallized? Any local college with a strength of materials, materials science, or machine design professor should be able to tell if you drop by and make nice.

I do like the four bolt mounting configuration better than two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Simple cast material can be a bit crack prone in tension.
The mounting bolts on cleats, including that one, load the part in compression.
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Old 03-08-2014, 16:19   #25
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

But the working load to the M/screws & body of the cleat is surely a combination of shear & tension force?
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Old 03-08-2014, 16:43   #26
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

I'm surprised at the number of responses saying these are poor cleat designs. They have been used on many boats for many years with no problems. The basic design is sound - the worries about the holes and countersink are unfounded. Even other different designs also have countersunk holes.

I have seen more boat failures than cleat failures - even with what I would consider marginal quality and size cleats.

This is the first example of this type failing I have ever seen. However, I have seen very, very few failures of cleats ever. I have seen the two-bolt types like those used on docks have an arm snap off, but generally those were cheap galvanized cleats anyway. Other rare failures have been aluminum cleats of several designs that had an arm snap. I have never seen a 4-bolt base snap. Google for broken cleats and see how many examples you find.

My impression is that this was either a cheap knockoff cleat, or just really unlucky - sometimes that happens. Perhaps this is a good quality cleat that had a casting or manufacturing defect. Perhaps it was cheap pot metal.

But I don't think the design itself can be brought into question.

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Old 03-08-2014, 16:57   #27
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

I wouldn't defend or condemn the design but as an engineer who has seen a lot of stuff fail, if you gave me a new one of those and asked me where it would "eventually" fail - I draw a picture of the two failure locations that have occurred.

The countersunk hole has little edge distance and it is inarguable that the c'sunk screw loads the hole in tension. The failure near the vertical is classic bending indicating that when this corrosion weakened part was being mounted the bottom was not sitting flat and because the tang that carries the bolt holes is thin and would fail, right where it did in the radius.
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Old 03-08-2014, 17:08   #28
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

Our boat is loaded with this style of 10" cleat. On ours, there is 1/4" of meat at the thinnest part at the top of the holes, and 1/2" of meat at the hole itself. The countersinks are designed to exactly fit oval or pan head 1/4x20 bolts. This fit adds to the strength in this area. The base itself is 1/4" thick.

I'm not arguing that this spot isn't where failures WOULD occur - I am arguing that most decks would rip out before the cleat itself failed.

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Old 03-08-2014, 17:09   #29
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

What style of cleats do others have? Is the OP's style common or not (we have them)? Do other styles have countersunk bolt holes?

I never thought much about cleats before - beyond appropriate size and pedigree.

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Old 03-08-2014, 17:14   #30
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Re: Is this Crevice Corrosion or a Bad Casting?

BTW, if you want cleats that won't break, buy a Catana. They only order one size of cleat for all of their boat models - the size appropriate for the largest one they make (65'?). On a 43' model, those things are ridiculous!

Maybe other builders do the same?

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