Instructions for Tying the Brion Toss Button Knot & High Strength Soft Shackle

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Stumble

My vote is for better button, but then I like alliteration.

Better Button it is then .

I will go make one and post a photo.
Without the two loops of the High Strength I agree that it would look better. Without the tatty tail of the Diamond it will make handling smoother.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

I have posted instructions for the new Better-Button or BB soft shackle here:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...le-155714.html

SWL

Edited to add:
This is how the BB soft shackle looks:

[Seaworthy Lass]

I had a few bits of cut dyneema to use up from my experiments to create something to capture low friction rings well, so I made up some "High Strength" soft shackles from the scraps.

They are a lovely design.

I thought I would show you how small they could be made.

This is about the limit using 6 mm dyneema if a 30x line diameter bury of the legs is allowed and a bit of unburied space is left to open the noose more easily.

When open, this one measures 24 cm from the tip of the noose to the base of the Button stopper. You would better quick distribution of load if a shock load was applied if the legs were a bit longer, so I would not make them quite so short normally, but it is cute and super strong still.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

A brief update:

For the latest batch of soft shackles I am making using Brion Toss's Button stopper, I have increased noose size from being able to hold 4 lines snuggly, to holding 6-8 lines. Online instructions are non specific for this ("form a noose/eye" is about the best I can find) for high strength soft shackles (for ones using the Diamond stopper holding 1-1.5 line diameters is recommended).

I initially made noose size big enough to fit 4 line diameters, but as the legs pass obliquely through the noose, I started bumping this up to 5-6. The latest lot using a Button stopper have been made to fit 8 lots of line and to me this looks perfect. It is still much smaller than the stopper size, so I don't think security is an issue. The size means the throat ratio of the noose has increased nicely, reducing any tearing force on it. It tightens up quickly and easy without being restricted by the legs (this may make a difference if load is applied suddenly before the legs of the soft shackle have equalised well). I like it. I am sometimes finding it easier to mark the dyneema noose size rather than fiddling with inserting 8 bits of line in to make the noose. Length needed for the inner part of the noose is 12 x line diameter.

I am currently using a "needle" style fid (similar in action to a wire fid or D-splicer fid) to bury the tails at the end. This inserts at the opposite end of the bury so the tails are pulled through rather than pushed. I find I can then start the bury right at the base of the stopper. The closer you can get the better.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Unfortunately there has been a recent glitch with Photobucket images.

I have re-attached most of the images now . Hope this is of use.

SWL

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I am currently using a "needle" style fid (similar in action to a wire fid or D-splicer fid) to bury the tails at the end. This inserts at the opposite end of the bury so the tails are pulled through rather than pushed. I find I can then start the bury right at the base of the stopper. The closer you can get the better.

SWL

Me too. I started doing this a few months ago when I made up my last batch - using my very expensive wand that I've shown before


Much better bury!

[SailRedemption]

I have a MS Word document for the better button, I'll try to attach. It has pictures and all of Lass' directions.


SWL, the D splicer is the cat's mittens! Love mine. Regarding the noose, I was always making my "4" lines size very loosely. I would say I was already doing 6 at least.

[SailRedemption]

Let's try again.. So it's just the button instructions. Somehow the other directions for the shackle is not on it. I'll remake it. But, Here it is. (:http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/595ee8bf...STRUCTIONS.pdf

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by SailRedemption

Let's try again.. So it's just the button instructions. Somehow the other directions for the shackle is not on it. I'll remake it. But, Here it is. (:http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/595ee8bf...STRUCTIONS.pdf

Many thanks .
That is extremely useful.

Originally Posted by SailRedemption

SWL, the D splicer is the cat's mittens! Love mine. Regarding the noose, I was always making my "4" lines size very loosely. I would say I was already doing 6 at least.

You were a step ahead of me then .

When I first started making soft shackles I religiously followed instructions. The stopper used in the original Classic/Colligomarine style ones was the Diamond knot and instructions said to make the noose size snuggly fit one line diameter. I started bumping this up a little fairly early, figuring that there were two legs passing through and they probably shouldn't be absolutely strangled. Using the same logic, when I initially made the high strength ones I started with a noose that fitted four line diameters.

Observing soft shackles carefully while pretensioning them on a winch is very informative. Four line diameters just isn't enough, as the legs pass through the noose obliquely, not perpendicularly. So I increased this to fit 5-6 line diameters. The latest nooses made to fit 8 line diameters (I now just mark a noose 12x line diameter in length to achieve this) for the first time look "happy". A highly unscientific word, but very appropriate . The legs are not restricted, the throat angle of the noose is well over 2:1 (reducing tearing force at the throat) and the stopper is still held very snuggly.

For the original Classic/Colligomarine style soft shackles where the central bury starts right at the base of the noose, and a noose size of only one line diameter is used, the noose will end up constricting the base of the stopper appallingly, as the cover for the central bury expands under load. Instructions don't even say to milk the central bury vigorously and secure quickly before it moves back. Under high load the cover will stretch even further, strangling the base of the stopper badly (this is the usual break point). I wonder how much this is affecting the strength of these? I think simply ensuring the noose size is decent under load may increase the strength. Measured strength of soft shackles using the Diamond stopper has been reported to be anything from around 100-190% of line strength. How rapidly load is applied will affect this, but the noose size may be another reason for the huge variation found.

I have never seen this discussed.

Anyway, thanks again for the pdf. That is much easier to use than going through the posts, particularly when images disappear!

SWL

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

.
I have never seen this discussed.

Back when, Brion dreamed up a number of improvements to the noose, made samples and I tested them. The best was pretty good 250% (if I remember correctly). I don't remember if any of that was documented in the SA thread or not.

I'm now building 300% shackles for heavy lift applications. But they are a fundamentally different design - simpler in most regards, with major changes to the conventional failure points.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Back when, Brion dreamed up a number of improvements to the noose, made samples and I tested them. The best was pretty good 250% (if I remember correctly). I don't remember if any of that was documented in the SA thread or not.

I'm now building 300% shackles for heavy lift applications. But they are a fundamentally different design - simpler in most regards, with major changes to the conventional failure points.

Are you allowed to share the design? or the concept? Is it a variation of a knot-and-noose?
I think the future is in covered selvagees, much like Harken's "Loups," which is a bunch of turns of thinner line inside a dyneema cover. They're pretty easy to home-make as well.

[estarzinger]

^^ Ben, you are sharp and knowledgeable on this rope work. I am sure you can figure out what I am doing. I am pushing the theoretical limit and to get there need all the bend radius at 5:1 (or better), and no significant distortions or stress risers. I think there are only two basic designs which allow this (and in both the 'loop' and the 'knot' are different than the conventional soft shackle) - and I use one for 'quick detach' and the other for 'slow detach' applications.

I have to provide test certificates for these heavy lift applications, so I make batches of 11, break one and proof test the rest.

In 'yachting' there seems no real desire for stronger designs. Almost no-one is using the current stronger designs. Allen thinks you should just use the conventional design and go up in rope size if you need extra strength.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^ Ben, you are sharp and knowledgeable on this rope work. I am sure you can figure out what I am doing. I am pushing the theoretical limit and to get there need all the bend radius at 5:1 (or better), and no significant distortions or stress risers. I think there are only two basic designs which allow this (and in both the 'loop' and the 'knot' are different than the conventional soft shackle) - and I use one for 'quick detach' and the other for 'slow detach' applications.

I have to provide test certificates for these heavy lift applications, so I make batches of 11, break one and proof test the rest.

In 'yachting' there seems no real desire for stronger designs. Almost no-one is using the current stronger designs. Allen thinks you should just use the conventional design and go up in rope size if you need extra strength.

You're right about yachting beginning to fall behind in the quest for strongest possible. I had a huge problem getting strops strong enough to match the rating of some Harken TTR2 blocks: they simply don't give enough clearance to get that much material in there. Their lashable 57s and 75s have the same problem. I suspect they want to ensure that the line will snap before the block blows up--which I can appreciate, given the price tag of those TTR2s, but it's frustrating to try and rig them up.

That aside, I appreciate the compliment, and only wish I was as sharp as you make me sound. Thanks!

[Seaworthy Lass]

These instructions were posted several years ago and over this time I have gradually tweaked the design.

I have gone back and add changes in green to make it clear what has been altered.

SWL

[jtsailjt]

What a great thread packed with useful information! Many thanks to all those who took the time to develop the soft shackle and share what they know, especially to SWL for posting the best step by step illustrated instructions I’ve been able to find that actually enabled me to make some useful soft shackles. I appreciate the help!