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Old 12-05-2013, 00:45   #31
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

Snowpetrel,

You've given some food for thought but part of the plan is to put T-tracks on the house top for the inner sail. As well my genoa T-tracks run right up to the shrouds so I think I have that part covered for reaching. It can go inside or outside of the shrouds depending on angle of tack. I won't really know how the sail is going to set until I get out there with the thing and try it out. Then I can make adjustments if need be.

We have a pass here called the Saratoga Pass, which is like a wind tunnel in the late afternoons. So I'll be able to set it up and run in a shakedown cruise, then I'll know for sure how it'll work.

I hope I will not have to use the storm sail. It's just a bit of insurance. The stay sail will only come back to the mast, and that's it. I'm considering running a cross track to make it self tacking, but we'll see.

I don't really plan to do any storm sailing but just don't want to cross the Pacific w/o being ready for a blow.
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:16   #32
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

I added an inner fore stay to my 37 ft yacht. It is anchored to a manufactured SS fitting which is bolted to the deck over the collision bulkhead. The top of the stay is attached at the base of the second spreaders and backed up there by some old running back stays that are now fixed to new chain plates aft of the mast. Whilst they don't provide a stiff enough inner fore stay, I sail with this setup all the time.
I plan to take a spectra runner or two to the transom and crank it up when I need to fly the staysail in a blow. The inner fore stay is parallel to the fore stay which pleases the eye. The heavily reefed main will tack without releasing the runners too.
I am now considering adding a furler and stay sail permanently attached rather than hanked on when required since I found the Genoa passes around the inner without too much bother.
Wayno
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Old 13-05-2013, 05:48   #33
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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I am now considering adding a furler and stay sail permanently attached rather than hanked on when required since I found the Genoa passes around the inner without too much bother.
Wayno
Hi Wayne, as we discussed I think your plans for the roller on the staysail sound good, let me know when you want those extrusions for the furler and I can bring them up for you, and the improved halyard lock system. I wonder if a cover could be made for the lower section of the rolled up sail to stop the sheets from chafing the suncover? Also some straps running forward from the drum would be nice to help prevent the lazy sheet from tangling under the drum. I have a design sort of sketched out. It would have been very nice if we had the furling staysail on SOS in antarctica...
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Old 18-06-2013, 23:27   #34
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

Well, I've about got the thing all done forward, and the mast modifications. But was just wondering how much purchase I should use for my running back stays adjusters. I'm thinking 4:1 or even up to 6:1.

What are you, out there, using on your rigs? And is it sufficient?

As well, I'll be installing some external chainplates for the runners.
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Old 18-06-2013, 23:31   #35
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It's a backstay. On all but the smallest cruisers the runners are most likely on a winch. The lazy headsail sheet winch can be used. 6 to 1 is not going to get the job done. 16:1 might if it runs perfect.
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Old 19-06-2013, 00:01   #36
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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It's a backstay. On all but the smallest cruisers the runners are most likely on a winch. The lazy headsail sheet winch can be used. 6 to 1 is not going to get the job done. 16:1 might if it runs perfect.
Holy shineola! My main genoa winches are 16.5:1 and secondary are 12.5:1

And what if I want to run this as a cutter rig? I'd need a third set of winches. I just want to steady my mast, not hold the thing up.
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Old 19-06-2013, 00:06   #37
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Sorry. I did not intend those ratios for winches. Those would be ratios for running blocks to a hand line. With a winch it doesn't take much. A two speed would be fine. You are tensioning a forestay. That takes some considerable force.
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Old 19-06-2013, 00:19   #38
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

On our Westsail 32, 4-1 Schaeffer #7 fiddle blocks worked fine. Just saw a Westsail 42 in the yard with the same set up. If you really want them to be bullet proof might go up a size on the blocks. You are trying to keep the mast in column so don't need the tension of a backstay. It would be nice to have more purchases if you had to have no sag in your staysail stay. You're going cruising and don't need such a tight stay assuming you are not going to use a furler on the stay. with a little planning you can set the RB before you tack or jibe which will add the tension when on the other tack. Would definitely use a super low stretch synthetic for the running back and line.
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Old 19-06-2013, 01:36   #39
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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On our Westsail 32, 4-1 Schaeffer #7 fiddle blocks worked fine. Just saw a Westsail 42 in the yard with the same set up. If you really want them to be bullet proof might go up a size on the blocks. You are trying to keep the mast in column so don't need the tension of a backstay. It would be nice to have more purchases if you had to have no sag in your staysail stay. You're going cruising and don't need such a tight stay assuming you are not going to use a furler on the stay. with a little planning you can set the RB before you tack or jibe which will add the tension when on the other tack. Would definitely use a super low stretch synthetic for the running back and line.
It seems most/all fiddle blocks only go up to 4:1, and that the highest SWL for and 8/9 series is around <3000#, which would only be equivalent to the 3/16"/ 5mm Amsteel Blue runner. Seems like a major mismatch somewhere.

Most fiddle blocks are held to a point with a single pin/shackle that are fairly small compared to the blocks themselves. "No chain is stronger then its weakest link" I think I need to do some research on block systems that will support at least a 1/4"/7mm amsteel line. Hell, that's what my safety lines are.
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Old 19-06-2013, 07:50   #40
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

FWIW,

On our fractional rig we use a 3:1 purchase lead to a secondary winch (Barient 27) via a Lewmar clutch. Crank them up pretty hard, then set the clutch and take the tail of the purchase off the winch. Runners themselves are 7 mm Dyneema.

Seems adequate for us, and in your masthead rig the loads will be much less.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 19-06-2013, 08:11   #41
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

I fitted a inner forestay to a 393 and added running backstays and a cabin top sheet car track.

My experience was fixed, The only practical place to secure the bottom fitting was the anchor locker/forward bulkhead, This has to be reenforced to prevent issues like a poster mentioned, it also meant that the staysail was large then might otherwise be.

4;1, 6:1 on backstays ?, I just had 4:1 and hand tightened, you dont need piles of tension on. would agree now that spectra is best , damm steel wire is frightening is its gets loose. mine was a removable inner stay , so used a high field lever.

Since the top is fairly close to the mast top , it was pointed out to me that my running backstays were most likely not needed.

Advice, talk it over with you mast manufacturer

Finally , with a foam luff headsail on the main forestay, I never needed the inner. SO if I was you I would ask yourself, just why you need this.

The other thing , it was difficult to secure teh T-tracks on teh cabin top and it was difficult to beef up the cored deck there. I was never terribly happy with.


Ultimately it was a waste of time, Ive taken a furling headsail and in-mast boat through an F10, in reality these more complicated sail plans are an for aficionados rather then strictly necessary.

I spent more money adding a facnor pole out forward and an endless furler for a downwind light airs sail , now that was worth it.


dave
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Old 19-06-2013, 09:49   #42
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
FWIW,

On our fractional rig we use a 3:1 purchase lead to a secondary winch (Barient 27) via a Lewmar clutch. Crank them up pretty hard, then set the clutch and take the tail of the purchase off the winch. Runners themselves are 7 mm Dyneema.

Seems adequate for us, and in your masthead rig the loads will be much less.

Cheers,

Jim
Thanks Jim, that's more assuring. I was thinking of using 9 mm but that may be over kill. My concern are the block strengths.
You must use the winch to ease off the pressure for release?


Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
I fitted a inner forestay to a 393 and added running backstays and a cabin top sheet car track.

My experience was fixed, The only practical place to secure the bottom fitting was the anchor locker/forward bulkhead, This has to be reenforced to prevent issues like a poster mentioned, it also meant that the staysail was large then might otherwise be.

4;1, 6:1 on backstays ?, I just had 4:1 and hand tightened, you dont need piles of tension on. would agree now that spectra is best , damm steel wire is frightening is its gets loose. mine was a removable inner stay , so used a high field lever.

Since the top is fairly close to the mast top , it was pointed out to me that my running backstays were most likely not needed.

Advice, talk it over with you mast manufacturer

Finally , with a foam luff headsail on the main forestay, I never needed the inner. SO if I was you I would ask yourself, just why you need this.

The other thing , it was difficult to secure teh T-tracks on teh cabin top and it was difficult to beef up the cored deck there. I was never terribly happy with.


Ultimately it was a waste of time, Ive taken a furling headsail and in-mast boat through an F10, in reality these more complicated sail plans are an for aficionados rather then strictly necessary.

I spent more money adding a facnor pole out forward and an endless furler for a downwind light airs sail , now that was worth it.


dave
Like I said earlier I've tested an inner staysail and the boat balanced out very well. This is a finned keel IOR, which likes to pivot on its keel. Maybe a full keel would be different. For mine a reefed up genny w/o the main just causes weather helm and in a rough sea I don't want to create those kind of stresses on my large rudder.

Sounds like you have more of a solent stay. That's the advantage, that one doesn't need runners. I considered this but I also wanted to be able to secure my mast in a blow with just a storm jib. My mast will pump at the dock in just the right conditions until I loosen up the hyd. back stay.

Del
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Old 19-06-2013, 09:58   #43
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

I had 4:1 on a couple of boats and it worked, but if I'd really wanted them super tight I would want more purchase. I just view them as reinforcement when the stay wants to pull the mast section forward though. WHat may be more important is how stretchy the line is.
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Old 19-06-2013, 12:01   #44
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Thanks Jim, that's more assuring. I was thinking of using 9 mm but that may be over kill. My concern are the block strengths.
You must use the winch to ease off the pressure for release?

Del
No, Del, the Lewmars will release under the full load... that's why I use them!
Haven't had such good luck with the Spinlocks that came with the boat, though. Broke the cam handle off the one on my main halyard before I learned my lesson!

Cheers,

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Old 09-08-2013, 00:51   #45
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

Well, it's all done now. Here's some pictures. but for full detail one can goto my blog.
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