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Old 10-05-2013, 22:45   #16
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

Having an inner forestay that is parallel to the forestay looks very good , but is not really needed. Make your deck connection to the strongest, most convenient place possible. In harbor, or day sailing it wont be connected anyway. It (staysail) is a passage sail, and not needed 90% of the time. A reefable staysail is a very good idea, rather than another sail change to get to a storm jib. Running backs are not much of a problem on a passage, so install them and rarely use them. I think that a removable inner forestay with a reefable staysail is the best combo that you can have,____Grant.
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Old 10-05-2013, 22:46   #17
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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Personally, would not go with a bow drogue. .............................
I'm not sure how this boat handles in really big seas but it does surf really well. But wouldn't be a good idea to run a drogue off the stern in these conditions anyway?
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Old 11-05-2013, 10:57   #18
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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.... I think that a removable inner forestay with a reefable staysail is the best combo that you can have,____Grant.
Grant:
I am thinking along those lines also. Although some good arguments for a separate storm jib, I think being able to reef a strong staysail would be much easier process in foul weather instead of having to change sails. As I am looking for my staysail to be used in higher winds anyway (not to be used with a yankee, but used instead of my 110% genny) it would be heavy built anyway.

Have you suggestions on:
How big the staysail to be? (say % of inner forestay triangle, or % of regular headsail area).
Figuring traditional reef points?
How much area to be taken up by reef? (like 30% of sail?)
Single reef point?

Appreciate any ideas.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:04   #19
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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Originally Posted by Dennis.G View Post
Grant:
I am thinking along those lines also. Although some good arguments for a separate storm jib, I think being able to reef a strong staysail would be much easier process in foul weather instead of having to change sails. As I am looking for my staysail to be used in higher winds anyway (not to be used with a yankee, but used instead of my 110% genny) it would be heavy built anyway.

Have you suggestions on:
How big the staysail to be? (say % of inner forestay triangle, or % of regular headsail area).
Figuring traditional reef points?
How much area to be taken up by reef? (like 30% of sail?)
Single reef point?

Appreciate any ideas.
The problem I see with reefing a stay sail is the high winds involved. A storm sail would be smooth w/o any pockets to get pulled out, in turn having a bigger problem to deal with later on.

An inner sail is not that hard to deal with like what a forward jib or genoa would be. One is pretty much in the middle of the deck rather then hanging out over the bow in the rough.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:24   #20
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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The problem I see with reefing a stay sail is the high winds involved. A storm sail would be smooth w/o any pockets to get pulled out, in turn having a bigger problem to deal with later on.

An inner sail is not that hard to deal with like what a forward jib or genoa would be. One is pretty much in the middle of the deck rather then hanging out over the bow in the rough.
But as the staysail is in middle of deck, I don't see the real concern on "pocket to get pulled out". Any different that reefing mainsail?

Can't say that a storm jib would not be good to have up in right conditions, but not convinced that a strong staysail with a reef tied in would not be up to the task. Has to be easier to tie in a reef than change sails.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:35   #21
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

A point to remember: The boat will flex at the weak joint in the system. The former owner on my boat had installed an inner stay, bringing it down at the juncture of the anchor locker thwart bulkhead and doing a pretty good job of tying the pad eye to the thwart and thus (he thought) spreading out the tension over a pretty wide area and distributing the force, ultimately, to the hull at the hull-thwart connections.
Ended up with stress cracks in the hull on both sides and this on a well-built boat!
I added 2 plies of glass at the hull. Built up and reinforced the glassed in blocks that the thwart attaches to. I continued the line of the stay through the anchor locker and out through the bows. Built a big headed (2inch x 1 inch) inch bolt to project into the anchor locker. Removed enough material at the bow to bury the head and epoxied over the head so there is no exposed steel at the bow. Pre-stressed the hell out of it when I epoxied it in place.
So I have what I call a jumper stay (no one knows what to call it) in the anchor locker. I have a turnbuckle in the locker so I can remove the stay for maint or just loosen it when the inner forestay is not attached.
This has worked well so far, combined with running back stays that run back to the aft cockpit winches so there is no great amount of extra tackle needed and they are easy to get forward and out of the way when not needed.
It does give some issues with rope anchor rode piling up on the stay but none to speak of with the chain which is usually all I use.
I have a main with four reefing points but the staysail balances well at either the second or third reef.
Hope this helps
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:35   #22
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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Originally Posted by Dennis.G View Post
But as the staysail is in middle of deck, I don't see the real concern on "pocket to get pulled out". Any different that reefing mainsail?

Can't say that a storm jib would not be good to have up in right conditions, but not convinced that a strong staysail with a reef tied in would not be up to the task. Has to be easier to tie in a reef than change sails.
A mainsail has a boom, which can be good to secure flopping flakes. Personally, I'm not fond of trying to reef the loose foot of a flopping jib sail. Don't like getting smacked in the head with a clew. But, "To each his own".
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:46   #23
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

Quote:
Originally Posted by um saudade View Post
A point to remember: The boat will flex at the weak joint in the system. The former owner on my boat had installed an inner stay, bringing it down at the juncture of the anchor locker thwart bulkhead and doing a pretty good job of tying the pad eye to the thwart and thus (he thought) spreading out the tension over a pretty wide area and distributing the force, ultimately, to the hull at the hull-thwart connections.
Ended up with stress cracks in the hull on both sides and this on a well-built boat!
I added 2 plies of glass at the hull. Built up and reinforced the glassed in blocks that the thwart attaches to. I continued the line of the stay through the anchor locker and out through the bows. Built a big headed (2inch x 1 inch) inch bolt to project into the anchor locker. Removed enough material at the bow to bury the head and epoxied over the head so there is no exposed steel at the bow. Pre-stressed the hell out of it when I epoxied it in place.
So I have what I call a jumper stay (no one knows what to call it) in the anchor locker. I have a turnbuckle in the locker so I can remove the stay for maint or just loosen it when the inner forestay is not attached.
This has worked well so far, combined with running back stays that run back to the aft cockpit winches so there is no great amount of extra tackle needed and they are easy to get forward and out of the way when not needed.
It does give some issues with rope anchor rode piling up on the stay but none to speak of with the chain which is usually all I use.
I have a main with four reefing points but the staysail balances well at either the second or third reef.
Hope this helps

I have a cored hull which will flex quite a bit under load. I do plan to put a couple fasteners up thru the bottom with some good sized washer/plates under the bolt heads, then fair and glass over the plates to avoid turbulence/cavitation. I'll be hauling out after the mast is back in place, for a few items that need doing.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:48   #24
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
A mainsail has a boom, which can be good to secure flopping flakes. Personally, I'm not fond of trying to reef the loose foot of a flopping jib sail. Don't like getting smacked in the head with a clew. But, "To each his own".
OK, good point about the boom for mainsail.

Not sure how jib would actually be reefed. Maybe it has to come down to the deck, have reef tied in, and then hoisted back up? I have never even had my hands on a jib with reef points so I do not know.

Anyone with experience, please share. Thanks.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:59   #25
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

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OK, good point about the boom for mainsail.

Not sure how jib would actually be reefed. Maybe it has to come down to the deck, have reef tied in, and then hoisted back up? I have never even had my hands on a jib with reef points so I do not know.

Anyone with experience, please share. Thanks.
It's just like a loose footed main sail. One just bunches up the foot into eyelets w/o tying it to the boom. Once a loose footed mainsail is all the way down then it's tied to the boom.

With a jib, one has to manually move the jib sheets up to the next clew. Lots of fun in a blow.
On a mainsail the clew has separate outhauls.

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Old 11-05-2013, 12:15   #26
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

Results of further looking about:
In Pardey's Self Sufficient Sailor they outline jib reef process as:
1. Lower jib to deck
2. Move jibsheets to reefing clew
3. Fasten tack down
4. Furl and tie the reef points
5. Haul jib back up reefed and ready to go

By the way, their staysail was 105 SF and 77 SF reefed (73%).
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Old 11-05-2013, 13:28   #27
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

FWIW,

Some years ago I had a "reefing" #3 genoa. It was far more work to tie in all the reef ponts and change over the sheets than to change it (leaving it in a long narrow sailbag that was well fastened to the toe rail). And once you got through with all the struggle, the bloody thing had a poor shape, it flogged the leach and eventually the reefing ties would come undone. I hated it and soon gave up using it reefed.

Admittedly, a much smaller staysail would be easier, but then you would be making the change under much more trying conditions. And, as is so often the case when trying to extrapolate from the Pardey's advice, things are harder with bigger sails, and a 105 sq ft sail is smaller than my storm jib.

So, I would never rely upon a reefing jib or staysail for heavy weather sailing. YMMV.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 11-05-2013, 19:57   #28
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

What makes things worse is this 40' boat's displacement is only around 16,000#. One could be in for one hellava ride if they didn't change sails soon enough.
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Old 11-05-2013, 20:50   #29
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

Delmarrey, I dont know the amount of reduction, since when I had a staysail cut for my Peterson 44, the sailmaker talked me out of reef points. I wanted it to reef so that I didnt have to change the position of the lead blocks. I dont think he could figure it out. About a year ago one of the sailmakers on CF explained how to do it, and it should not be hard. One thing I would do is to have a second tack wire, so you dont have to disconnect the bottom of the sail when reefing. I have not sailed a reefed jib/staysail, so I am not sure about the points coming undone, but I have sailed many thousands of miles under reefed mains and never had a point untie. I personally dont understand things like single line reefing where you have gobs of main flapping away as long as you are reefed. If you double reef, there is that much more sail flapping. I tend to think that a properly reefed staysail will be neat enough and not beat itself to death. ____Think of the scene of weather strong enough to need a storm staysail! Your jib is already rolled up or dropped and your main is at 1st or 2nd reef. You must go forward and drop and remove, and bag your staysail and tie it off while you unbag the storm staysail and hank it on and reconnect the halyard and sheets, go back to mast and hoist storm sail while keeping track of the bagged staysail. ___2nd scene! Drop staysail, crawl forward and attach 2nd tack wire to reefed tack point, retie sheets to the reef clew, or use a sail tie and tie the second clew to the original, Tie in your points , return to mast,and hoist sail. Setting the running back with either wat of reefing. I think that in practical terms, it is an easier system, that will work very well. Just to indicate where I am coming from, I always tied in the points when reefing the main, and if I thought it would stay reefed for more than an hour or two, I would put a sail tie through the reef cringle, since I worried about the reefing line chafing through and ripping the main. Just my opinions.____Grant.
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Old 11-05-2013, 23:51   #30
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Re: Installing an Inner Forestay

I enjoy your blog Delmarrey, it's very impressive what you have done with the boat.

I had reefing headsails on my first boat. They always shook the heavy clew patch loose somehow, it being very hard to roll tight and lash properly, then the bunt of the sail between the ties went slack and started filling with water and catching on the stanchions and mast winches.

In the end I did exactly what Jim Cate did and changed the sails rather than reef them. A staysail should be a bit better, being more inboard and non overlapping and not getting so much of the bow wave in it, by all means put in a reef point, but I would also carry and use a proper storm jib for a real blow.

I should point out that it worked fine downwind with a pole and on another boat we ran nicely through a blow with the staysail poled forward from the reef point, but with the full sail set. On my folks gaff ketch the boomed staysail reefs very well, much like a main. The problem is the violent shaking the clew gets, combined with the lack of tension on the foot, maybe a full length batten through the sail at that point could help?

Speaking of full length battens, we fitted one to the top of the gaff ketches staysail. it worked wonders to flatten the old stretched sail and stop leach flutter. I am keen to try full length battens on a staysail, angling them down so they don't stretch the cloth as the sail drops.



Reefed staysail on a boom in action. The boom has port and starboard sheets to control twist and act as preventers. There is also a central sheet for ease of tacking, This is a safe and effective way to use a boomed staysail.

Another thing I noticed in your diagram is that the inner forestay attaches below the upper spreaders. Personally I would rather have it nearer the upper spreaders to give the mast some transverse support where the stay attaches. This might also help get the runners above the second reefed main so you can tack without needing to play with the runners.

Since the stay is removable I would make the staysail bigger rather than smaller so you have less of a wind range gap when you roll away the baggy genoa, Optimising it for 25-35 rather than 30-40 knots, that way it will see more use, staysails are often to small to be useful on their own except when you are normally thinking it's better to stay at anchor.

Don't be tempted to put much overlap on the sail, as it will probably need to be sheeted inside the shrouds to work to windward and then it will need re-leading outside the shrouds for reaching. And don't cut it too low, as the head of the sail will open up and flog as soon as the sheet is eased unless you frig around with running sheet leads outboard.

It would be ideal to have a position a meter or two ahead of the mast that the stay can be tensioned to when it is not in use as a staysail stay. Set up like this it would act like a babystay and stop any inversion of the top part of your rig when the main has a reef or two in it. Just make sure you are careful when you release this stay in a blow to shift it forward to set the staysail as the loaded up mast might suddenly do something nasty! Maybe set the staysail halyard as a backup, or better just run off downwind while you make the switch.
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