Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-01-2013, 23:50   #16
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: installing a babystay

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTatia View Post
An inner forestay on a sloop is also called a Solent Stay,which could be removed when not in use. The link below has excellent information on an installation. A great blog BTW and I believe the author is a member here and he may chime in.

Solent Stay
Probably lots of loose definitions around the world. Here's how they've been used as I have heard or read:

Babystay is a stay to add bend to the mast to stabilize the mast and/or flatten the main. You don't put a sail on it. It is quite close to the mast.

Inner forestay is used to set a staysail. Quite often requires running backs or swept back spreaders or a permanent aft lower attached at the forestay hounds. Can be removable.

Solent stay attaches close enough to the top of the mast to not require additional support. I've seen numbers that it should be within 3-5% of the top of the mast length. The solent is usually far enough forward that you can't tack the jib without furling it. A solent seems to be more of a you use one sail or the other, but not both at the same time. A staysail on an inner forestay can be used in conjunction with a jib.
__________________

__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2013, 22:40   #17
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: installing a babystay

Great thread. Adelie's detailed responses are amazing!!

Adelie, appently my Niagara 35's headstay is technically a jibstay because it attaches to the short bowsprit. Is that right?

I've been thinking about a solent stay on my Niagara, but I haven't done it, so this is all theory... In my case, there's a bulkhead behind the anchor locker, but it has a very large hole in it. I was thinking of a fitting just aft of the bulkhead with four bolts going through the deck to a large backing plate with a ring on it. I'd then attach the ring down to either the bobstay fitting or the lower part of the bulkhead to take the tension load.

The obvious way to transfer the tension is with a cable and turnbuckles, but if your tensioner for a removable inner forestay ends up in an inconvenient place (like through the center of the v-berth that you aren't using at sea anyways). A rigger gave me the idea of using spectra cord wrapped many times. Very strong, and each time you thread it up through the top ring and then back down to the bottom ring, you increase the mechanical advantage. Very cool concept.
__________________

__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2013, 23:50   #18
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,638
Re: installing a babystay

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Adelie, appently my Niagara 35's headstay is technically a jibstay because it attaches to the short bowsprit. Is that right?
As I said, what I seemed to find is that historically the jibstay was the stay that went from the bowsprit to the mast head. This was based on a search with mild effort. I am not a historian. My sense is that even then there was some variation in what exactly the term meant. Current usage seems to be whatever stays are attached to the stem or bowsprit regardless of masthead or fractional rig.

For another example of this look up the origins of the word 'cutter', little relation to current usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
I've been thinking about a solent stay on my Niagara, but I haven't done it, so this is all theory... In my case, there's a bulkhead behind the anchor locker, but it has a very large hole in it. I was thinking of a fitting just aft of the bulkhead with four bolts going through the deck to a large backing plate with a ring on it. I'd then attach the ring down to either the bobstay fitting or the lower part of the bulkhead to take the tension load.
If there is a really big hole in that bulkhead, then pretty hard to make it work structurally. The fittings you mentioned probably look something like this: Rigrite, though these aren't exactly right. You want the fittings on top and bottom of the deck to be asymmetrical so that the stay and anchorage loads line up or the deck will be warped. See attached sketch. This link, Rigging Only, has some fittings that might work better.

If you attach to the bulkhead lower down, make sure it is at the level of the V-berth or you will break the bulkhead by pulling it aft, see same sketch.

Attaching to the bobstay sound like a wonderful idea if you can appropriately modify the fitting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
The obvious way to transfer the tension is with a cable and turnbuckles, but if your tensioner for a removable inner forestay ends up in an inconvenient place (like through the center of the v-berth that you aren't using at sea anyways). A rigger gave me the idea of using spectra cord wrapped many times. Very strong, and each time you thread it up through the top ring and then back down to the bottom ring, you increase the mechanical advantage. Very cool concept.
Given the amount of friction involved I don't think you will get a terrible lot of mechanical advantage trying to pull a lashing tight by hand tight by hand. But once you have it as tight as you can get it manually you can get a lot more load by inserting a bar thru bight of the lashing at it's midpoint and twisting. It's called a 'Spanish Windlass'. See a sketch here: The Spanish windlass - Fine Homebuilding Tip
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Deck fittings and chainplate issues for staysail stay anchorage.jpg
Views:	503
Size:	68.4 KB
ID:	52323  
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 04:15   #19
Registered User
 
Brian.clarity's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Boat: Hughes mk3 38
Posts: 13
A great big thank you to all of you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I feel much more comfortable with this project thanks to this blog.
__________________
Brian.clarity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 10:05   #20
Registered User
 
funjohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Currently Indiantown FL
Boat: 37' aluminum pilothouse "Elements"
Posts: 1,847
Re: installing a babystay

We just used two Wichard folding padeye... one on top of the deck and its twin below as a backing plate. This was then seized with amsteel to another folding padeye that I mounted inline with a glassed in panel in the anchor locker. This allows the pull to lineup due to the folding nature of the padeyes.
__________________
MJSailing.com - Written Blog
Youtube MJ sailing - Vlog
funjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 10:07   #21
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: installing a babystay

Wow, Adelie, Great stuff. I love the Spanish Windlass idea.

Since I have a thin section of tabbed bulkhead above the large cut-out, I was thinking of coming in at the bulkhead and dropping the tie-rod vertically down from there. The strip of bulkhead should be enough for shear in both the longitudinal and lateral directions, and the tie rod (or Spanish windlass) can take the tension.

I think the asymmetric fitting would still be needed though (thanks for that, I hadn't thought of the overturning moments from the offset).
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 10:13   #22
Registered User
 
funjohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Currently Indiantown FL
Boat: 37' aluminum pilothouse "Elements"
Posts: 1,847
Re: installing a babystay

We also used the Wichard 9150 fitting on the mast, two Facnor code zero thimbles were used for the Amsteel Blue stay, and a Wichard babystay adjuster was used for tension.
__________________
MJSailing.com - Written Blog
Youtube MJ sailing - Vlog
funjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 10:19   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
Re: installing a babystay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Assuming there is a bulkhead at the forward end of the v-berth this would be a good place to install a chain plate for the forestay.

You will want to add intermediate uppers and running backstays too.

See attached sketch for how I would set it up. Big arrow on the lower plan view drawing shows where I would expect the bulkhead to be.
Yes... dont just put it thru the deck with a plate. Use the anchor locker bulkhead or something similar.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 10:26   #24
Registered User
 
Freerider's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Boat: 1979 Hughes 35
Posts: 219
Re: installing a babystay

Does anyone have a diagram of a inner forestay w/ running backs?

I'm having trouble figuring out where and how to mount the running backs so they'll be opposite the inner forestay but won't affect the main.
__________________
Freerider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 10:29   #25
Registered User
 
funjohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Currently Indiantown FL
Boat: 37' aluminum pilothouse "Elements"
Posts: 1,847
Re: installing a babystay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freerider View Post
Does anyone have a diagram of a inner forestay w/ running backs?

I'm having trouble figuring out where and how to mount the running backs so they'll be opposite the inner forestay but won't affect the main.
They always interfere with the main. That is why you have two... just tension the one on the windward side to take up the forestay tension. You then switch over when you tack.

The leeward side remains slack or pulled back up to the mast.
__________________
MJSailing.com - Written Blog
Youtube MJ sailing - Vlog
funjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 10:53   #26
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
Re: installing a babystay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freerider View Post
Does anyone have a diagram of a inner forestay w/ running backs?

I'm having trouble figuring out where and how to mount the running backs so they'll be opposite the inner forestay but won't affect the main.
an alternative used to support cutter stays is to run them just aft of the lower aft shroud chainplate, often these are not runners but permanent stays. Look clsely and you can see them in the pic here:
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 10:54   #27
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: installing a babystay

Quote:
Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
They always interfere with the main. That is why you have two... just tension the one on the windward side to take up the forestay tension. You then switch over when you tack.

The leeward side remains slack or pulled back up to the mast.
In another words run them back to winches or use purchase blocks, or both.
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 11:41   #28
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: installing a babystay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freerider View Post
Does anyone have a diagram of a inner forestay w/ running backs?

I'm having trouble figuring out where and how to mount the running backs so they'll be opposite the inner forestay but won't affect the main.
This is also one reason people choose to go with a solent stay which attaches to the mast high enough up that no running backs are needed (by the way, the "running" part of running backstay refers to the fact that they are moved with every tack/gybe).
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2013, 12:13   #29
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: SW Florida
Boat: Bristol (Alden) 35 Sloop "Zephyr"
Posts: 498
Images: 2
Re: installing a babystay

I need an inner forstay on my Bristol 35 sloop, to hang a light air genny, and storm jib if needed.
I called the mast mfg, and they said I could attach it to the mast, without the need for runners (I was cruising, and couldn't imagine to have to deal with runners when tacking. Especially solo sailing) if it was within 15" (can't remember exact figure) of the mast head.

At the bottom, the stem head fitting had a hole for a toggle, about 1' back from the forstay. Worked fine.
__________________

__________________
over40pirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:49.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.