Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-06-2013, 06:06   #16
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: In-mast furling or traditional reefing

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I would have to disagree Dockhead, As you point out , a large percentage of European boats compensate for in-mast with large sail ( taller rigs) area. The loss of performance argument has mainly come from the 'retro-fit' market, a market that has largely died away.

Of all the sail systems that have given me trouble, fully battened mains are high up on that list, I prefer partly battened or no battens. ( irrespective of furling system)

Having sailed many in-masts, I can quite happily furl single hand, often pulling in the furling line , and then releasing clew tension as I go , equally a good free running in-mast can be furled without winches, I used sail a 40 footer where you could hold the clew outhaul in one hand and the furling line in the other and furl the sail!

Thats not to say there are in-masts that are stiff, badly positioned clutches and winches etc that make the operation awkward. But thats a design issue , not an in-mast issue

Ive been on fully battened mains where it required not only two people, but also a person at teh mast, guiding the sail cars down and ensuring the reef sat correctly. I particulary despise the halyard at the mast and the reef lines on clutches ( or outhaul on the coaming) setup , it nearly require three to reef.!

Dave
I'm glad to hear that some in-mast furlers can be operated single-handed, but I've never encountered one. You can, of course, just let the outhaul off a meter at a time, and furl in between, but I think that's asking for trouble. You really need to keep a constant tension on the outhaul for best results, and that requires a dedicated hand and a dedicated winch. The forces on the outhaul of my own rig (688 square feet/64m2 mainsail; bigger than some apartments I've lived in!) far exceed anything which can be dealt with by hand. One flap of the sail could take your arm off. Don't wrap the outhaul around your wrist!

The performance hit is noticeable (naturally) when you're hard on the wind. You really can't trim an in-mast furling main exactly right when hard on the wind. You can't fully compensate with a taller rig, although of course it helps.

All worthwhile, probably, on a larger boat, for all the reasons stated, but one should not sugar-coat the drawbacks.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 06:09   #17
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: In-mast furling or traditional reefing

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
Chartered a "boat" with in-mast furling, once. What a joke. Unfurled, the main is a fool's imitation of a sail. Furling, except in a dead calm, was neither pleasant or certain.

For a cocktail cruiser, fine. For a sailor, no way. Anyone who thinks slab reefing is a chore might consider a different pastime. Sheesh.
In my experience, mainsails on all charter boats, however furled, are "fool's imitations of a sail." Doubt that has anything to do with the furling method. The usually knackered, bagged-out charter boat mainsail will also be impossible to furl properly. You shouldn't judge on the basis of such an experience.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 06:12   #18
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: In-mast furling or traditional reefing

in almost 100% of in-mast furling jams, excluding actual gear failure, ( rare) the jam is firstly during furling, which results in the being unable to bring the sail out ( teh safer issue) and secondly are almost exclusively due to loose wraps ( clew tension) or poor boom angle

ie, operator error.

Not to mention there are a few tricks to release jammed in-masts.

As to performance, proper in-mast performs well, I blew the doors of a fully battened competitor in a trip around the canaries, with a proper in-mast. Yes shell not perform as well close hauled, but who does that on a cruisers for any length of time

When Im racing I have battened blacks sails, yes thats with a crew of 5 on a 30 footer, all grunts and experts. so -what.

Daddle I notice you sail a Santa Cruz 50, Bill Lee specialised in high performance, .light weight fast racing boats, so thats your experience, its not what lots of other people want or enjoy.
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 06:13   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Toronto area when not cruising
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 668
Re: In-mast furling or traditional reefing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maartster View Post
We are looking for a new sailing yacht (37-40 ft) and have to make a decision between traditional reefing (slab/lazy jack/single line) and in-mast reefing. I am not an expert in this field but have spent some time in reviewing opions posted in this and other various forums. Below are the findings so far.

Pro:
1. Easy to set sail, no need fight gravity or use electric winches.
2. Easy to stow sail, no need to go to mast, safer.
3. Ability to finetune sail surface to match wind conditions, better balance.
4. Better UV protection and clean look.
5. Added weight in mast increases (moment of) inertia to roll, more comfortable (?!).

Con:
1. Less performance due to small sail area and no roach.
2. Decreased stability due to extra weight in mast.
3. Major problems in case system jamms.
4. Opening in mast generates noise when wind comes from astern.
5. Higher cost.

The conclusion seems be be that there is no clear 'best' solution. The preferred system depends on various parameters such as preference for speed vs. comfort vs. safety, size and experience of crew, day sailing or long distance. In our case we do both weekend sailing and overnight offshore/costal cruising with a short or single handed crew. We lean towards in-mast for the following reasons:

1. Safer to operate in windy and night conditions.
2. Less performance mainly applies to close hauled light wind conditions (no reefing, no gennaker)
3. Less use of engine because it is easy to use main sail.
4. Increased percentage of in-mast systems with new production yachts (>50%) and ARC world cruising members.
5. Technology for cutting in-mast sails will develop over time (vertical battens, inflatable battens)

It is also interesting to observe that many owners of yachts with traditional reefing would 'never consider' using in-mast and that most owners of in-mast systems will 'never go back'. The discussion is somewhat similar to the pro's and con's of roller furling head/genua sails 20 years ago.
I think your analysis is very thorough. I have my first in-mast furler after almost 35 years with conventional mains so can comment on both although I suspect there are differences between different systems. We have a Hood and my thoughts apply only to Hoods since I don't think they are all the same.

There is a loss of performance but if the boat was designed for it the mast will be taller. I don't understand the comments about needing to go head to wind or needing two people to furl/unfurl. My wife and I do this alone on watch at night without difficulty. Jams don't happen if you know what you are doing and are careful. With the Hood, if a jam occurs there is a manual override, also you can lower the sail even if it is jammed.

Final thought is the decision is impacted by boat size and by how you sail. Forty feet is about the break even point for me. For long distance cruising it makes a lot of sense for sure.

Final thoughts, our Hood does moan like mad with wind on either stern quarter if you are at a dock,not when anchored or sailing. There is a solution, called a flute stopper (piece of sailcloth with big buttons), that you hoist up the mast slot. If you have vane steering it is great to be able to fine tune your main sail area to get the balance just right.
__________________
Still looking for our next boat. Have decided we want to have something that will keep us happy for the next 10 years or so. By then I will be pushing 80 and if i am still sailing that will be a very good thing.
AiniA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 06:21   #20
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

Quote:
All worthwhile, probably, on a larger boat, for all the reasons stated, but one should not sugar-coat the drawbacks.
All furling systems on large boats generate high loads, so your comments are correct , but generally apply to all furling/reefing situations. over 45-50, the loads on the running rigging are large , large enough to do serious damage, Outside of specialised setups , expecting to reef such a large sail on a large boat single handed is probably unrealistic .

But then for many owning a 50+ boat is unrealistic.! , I don't believe what you are saying applies to specific reefing systems, more just large boats.

The primary drawback to in-mast is jams. Jams are nearly always a result of poor procedures or lack of knowledge. Even then such jams tend to prevent unfurling rather then furling.

Performance is primarily a design issue. If you really want you can solve the roach area by all sorts of expensive contraptions, including air inflated battens, vertical battens ( which I detest) and other mechanisms. In most cases the performance gains from fully battened are not exploited by many sailors anyway.

Proper in-mast is realiable, easy to use and delivers adequate performance, while delivering ease of use, infinite reefing and other smaller benefits ( UV performance etc)

Its just another compromise on a boat.

dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 06:24   #21
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

In Mast furling on a mono hull is sweet. I had one and loved it. Easy out easy in.
You sail more with it because its so easy.
Wish I had it on my cat.
__________________
Cotemar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 06:47   #22
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,941
Images: 1
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

Ease etc depend on which furling system. The system used by Bavaria (selden) is a friction operated endless line that turns a winch which in turn has a bevel gear that turns the rod inside the mast, furling the sail.

This winch has a lock lever on it, which will only allow the sail to be furled, not unfurled. Unfortunately, you have to go to the mast to switch this lever. If the wind is especially heavy, and you haven't moved the lever from free-running to furling only, the friction on the endless line, will not be enough to hold the sail in. This means when you try to reef in heavy conditions, the sail just blow back out to full again. Of course, moving the lever over stops this, but you do have to go no deck.

I haven't tried other furling mains, I know that Jeanneau and Beneteau's work differently (long screw type, I believe), which probably is better.

I was happy with my furling system, but it takes some practice to learn to use it well. I'm also quite happy with my Dutchman.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 06:56   #23
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Ease etc depend on which furling system. The system used by Bavaria (selden) is a friction operated endless line that turns a winch which in turn has a bevel gear that turns the rod inside the mast, furling the sail.

This winch has a lock lever on it, which will only allow the sail to be furled, not unfurled. Unfortunately, you have to go to the mast to switch this lever. If the wind is especially heavy, and you haven't moved the lever from free-running to furling only, the friction on the endless line, will not be enough to hold the sail in. This means when you try to reef in heavy conditions, the sail just blow back out to full again. Of course, moving the lever over stops this, but you do have to go no deck.

I haven't tried other furling mains, I know that Jeanneau and Beneteau's work differently (long screw type, I believe), which probably is better.

I was happy with my furling system, but it takes some practice to learn to use it well. I'm also quite happy with my Dutchman.
I have that Selden system. You were not properly instructed on its use. Naturally you had problems.

The ratchet lever is only for furling (or unfurling) using a winch handle at the mast in case the furling line breaks. You never touch it in ordinary operation.

Otherwise, you furl and unfurl without switching any levers. You have to keep tension on the lazy side of the furling drum so that the line remains engaged with the drum. That's all there is to it.

If you are unfurling to an unreefed position, you just let it go -- just pull the sail out by the outhaul. If you want to end up with the sail partially out, it's best to have someone pull on the outhaul while you roll out the sail to the point you need using both hands on the furling line.

To furl or reef, put the active side of the furling line on a winch and hold the lazy side in your hand to keep tension on the furling line. Someone else needs to control the outhaul on another winch to keep tension on that so that it rolls up smoothly.

The furling line has plenty of force (there is gear reduction inside the mast) to control the mainsail in any conditions; in fact you don't even need a winch if you are just letting out or pulling in a little of the sail. Again -- the lever at the mast is not for this purpose.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 07:10   #24
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,941
Images: 1
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I have that Selden system. You were not properly instructed on its use. Naturally you had problems.

The ratchet lever is only for furling (or unfurling) using a winch handle at the mast in case the furling line breaks. You never touch it in ordinary operation.

Otherwise, you furl and unfurl without switching any levers. You have to keep tension on the lazy side of the furling drum so that the line remains engaged with the drum. That's all there is to it.

If you are unfurling to an unreefed position, you just let it go -- just pull the sail out by the outhaul. If you want to end up with the sail partially out, it's best to have someone pull on the outhaul while you roll out the sail to the point you need using both hands on the furling line.

To furl or reef, put the active side of the furling line on a winch and hold the lazy side in your hand to keep tension on the furling line. Someone else needs to control the outhaul on another winch to keep tension on that so that it rolls up smoothly.

The furling line has plenty of force (there is gear reduction inside the mast) to control the mainsail in any conditions; in fact you don't even need a winch if you are just letting out or pulling in a little of the sail. Again -- the lever at the mast is not for this purpose.
Hi Dockhead, I notice you have additional crew. Typically we are a two man crew. One working the lines, one steering. I do know how to use the system, but unless you are blessed with more than one pair of arms and hands, keeping tension the line, while working the outhaul, can be difficult (not impossible, but difficult) when alone.

But I like the system and it worked. There were issues when the wind got up.

There are issues with all systems.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 07:10   #25
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

I had a Sparcraft Masts on my Catalina 380 and never ever had a problem with it the five years that I owned the boat. It just worked , no issues
www.sparcraft.com
__________________
Cotemar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 07:39   #26
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

I was never a great fan of the Selden system, It always seemed to be designed so as to use a winch handle , rather then remotely. while the winch handle backup is useful, I prefer the single line systems, less friction , easier to route through blocks etc and less octopus arms needed.

The Hood and Reckman systems are very good I must say , but pricey , very pricey
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 08:18   #27
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: In-mast furling or traditional reefing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
I have both and much prefer in-mast furling. Everything to be said pro and con has been said here. I have found that those who do not like in-mast either don't have it or don't know how to furl properly.
Agreed. Even on this thread, there's a good deal of nonsense, like the claim that it's not possible to furl downwind. Translation: the sailor didn't have the knowledge or skill to accomplish the task, and was attempting to furl the way he was taught to reef.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 08:23   #28
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

This is how a Sparcraft Furling Masts system looks
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	In_Mast furler.jpg
Views:	2503
Size:	72.1 KB
ID:	62686  
__________________
Cotemar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 08:23   #29
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,211
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

Yup.... I'll agree... totally lacking in knowledge and experience...
And when I could not find the reefing points and ties I crumpled against the base of the mast and wept..
Should have seen me with the in boom....
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2013, 08:24   #30
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: In-Mast Furling or Traditional Reefing

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I was never a great fan of the Selden system, It always seemed to be designed so as to use a winch handle , rather then remotely.
If that's the case, it's been rigged wrong. A properly rigged Seldon system can be furled from the cockpit if the inhaul has properly been led aft. I've done it thousands of times without having to go forward and use a handle.
__________________

__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
furling

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stepping O'day 17 Daysailer Mast Markjensen Monohull Sailboats 3 04-11-2012 19:14
Mast furling slot Pinched at spreaders ctsbillc Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 11 21-12-2011 20:05
Installing Mast Boot with No Mast Collar ? MikeTurner Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 1 12-10-2011 09:40
Mast Came Down, Must Repair Acedude Construction, Maintenance & Refit 7 30-08-2011 14:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.