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Old 08-11-2016, 05:23   #31
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

Our boat (Tayana 58) came with a Leisurefurl in-boom system. For the most part, we love it. As others said, it can be finicky with respect to boom angle -- but once you have that figured out things generally go smoothly. Here are some of our other findings (some in agreement with others, some not).

We do NOT need to use a topping lift, although we often keep one attached. The hefty hydraulic vang adequately supports the boom. (The primary function of the topping lift is hoisting the dinghy outboard).

The sailcover is a loop in the boom that slides over the sail. I did not find it worked well, and can skip the slot and create a big, tangled mess, requiring cutting the cover out of a partially furled sail. Without it, though, the sun makes quick work of the leech. Our solution has been to do without a cover and when we ordered a new mainsail, we asked the loft to put a UV cover over the leech as you would on a furling headsail. That works very well.

You don't have to point fully into the wind to reef, but it helps. You certainly must unload the sail. When reefing off the wind we find that one must pay special attention to the boom angle (to vertical).

Electric winches make easy work of raising, reefing, etc. Guests almost always "ooh and ahh" about the ease of raising, reefing and lowering the mainsail.


We find it important to keep a little tension on the downhaul/furling line while hoisting the sail in order that the line wraps tightly around the drum; otherwise, it can build up in one location, press against the drum housing, and impede further furling/un-furling. Similarly, slight halyard tension while furling creates a neater furl, just as on a RF headsail. I further note that our installation does not have the eye-fairlead for the furling line on the mast that I have seen with some leisurefurl installations.

There is no method to control foot tension once the sail is bent on, but we don't miss that. We find that backstay tension / mast bend provides adequate draft control. With six full battens, I am happy with the sail shape.

While it was suggested that one reef such that a batten is just about to the exit the drum, we do not find this is necessary. There are effectively unlimited reefing points.

We regularly use a preventer when sailing off the wind. I would like to rig the preventer to the cockpit as this is typically the only reason crew has to go forward.

When attaching the sail, it is important to have it located and tensioned properly fore-aft. The forces at work are large and we inadvertently shredded the spectra luff on a new main at one batten pockets within the first 2000nm from having the sail slightly too far forward.

If/when I ever buy another boat, I would consider it a huge advantage if it did have a Leisurefurl. After sailing this system for well over 20,000nm, I would be reluctant to buy another boat without a similar system.
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:03   #32
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

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Hmmm, that's what has stopped me so far -- so you have no control over the foot tension once you've reefed?

But you do have control over foot tension, via the outhaul? Or is there no outhaul at all?
[...]
There is no adjustable outhaul. The tack and clew are lashed to eyes on the mandrel.

When the sail is completely unfurled, the foot tension is eased and the belly of the sail is pretty full. Of course you've got the vang / traveler adjustments to work with too.

As you take the first half-turn on the furling mandrel, you don't touch the halyard -- the sail stays at full hoist. During this half-turn, the foot is pulled down (the middle portion of the foot is attached to the mandrel via a short bolt-rope). At the same time the tack and clew are pulled fore and aft by the lashings (if you look at the geometry of this it will make sense). This does a good job of flattening the sail.

If you need to reef, you then ease the halyard and winch in on the furling line to continue rolling up the sail on the mandrel. Because the middle portion of the foot is already partially wrapped around the mandrel, the bulk of this middle portion causes the sail to flatten more, much like the foam or rope luff pads on a roller-reefing headsail.

Once you are past the first reef stage, the sail shape is mostly controlled by the full-length battens.

We don't have a fractional rig, so we can't use mast-bend for sailshape control.
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:12   #33
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Hmmm, that's what has stopped me so far -- so you have no control over the foot tension once you've reefed?

But you do have control over foot tension, via the outhaul? Or is there no outhaul at all?


I have been thinking about this in connection with a possible new boat, the specification of which I have been trying to formulate ahead of time.

I have Selden in-mast on my present boat, and with vertical battens and a carbon laminate mainsail, it works quite well. Certainly, we are very fast and do not seem to give up much to other boats with regular battened mains.

In-mast furling has some great advantages but also a few drawbacks. The really decisive drawback from my point of view of in-mast furling is lack of roach, so I think I'm leaning towards a normal battened main on the next boat, but I wanted to be sure I hadn't skipped over a possibly better option in the boom furling systems. But if there's no control of foot tension, that won't work for me. That is NOT among the disadvantages of in-mast furling.


Thread drift: If I ever were to have in-mast furling again, it would definitely have a hydraulic or electric furler, rather than the Selden endless line system. The other big drawback of my system is that it is very awkward to use the endless line furler -- it requires two hands, which does not leave a hand free to tension the outhaul, which is essential for smooth furling.
Dockhead,

Make your life easy, get something like this. We can adjust the outhaul at any time with just a the push of a button. With our new tri radial cut DYS mainsail, I doubt if you'd see much difference if any.

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Old 08-11-2016, 16:54   #34
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
There is no adjustable outhaul. The tack and clew are lashed to eyes on the mandrel.

When the sail is completely unfurled, the foot tension is eased and the belly of the sail is pretty full. Of course you've got the vang / traveler adjustments to work with too.

As you take the first half-turn on the furling mandrel, you don't touch the halyard -- the sail stays at full hoist. During this half-turn, the foot is pulled down (the middle portion of the foot is attached to the mandrel via a short bolt-rope). At the same time the tack and clew are pulled fore and aft by the lashings (if you look at the geometry of this it will make sense). This does a good job of flattening the sail.

If you need to reef, you then ease the halyard and winch in on the furling line to continue rolling up the sail on the mandrel. Because the middle portion of the foot is already partially wrapped around the mandrel, the bulk of this middle portion causes the sail to flatten more, much like the foam or rope luff pads on a roller-reefing headsail.

Once you are past the first reef stage, the sail shape is mostly controlled by the full-length battens.

We don't have a fractional rig, so we can't use mast-bend for sailshape control.
OK, I understand.

That wouldn't work for me -- I do a lot of fine control of sail shape with the outhaul and wouldn't be willing to give that up. I probably wouldn't care if I'd never had a loose-footed main or really good sails, but I have and I have.

Sorry for the thread drift.
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Old 08-11-2016, 16:57   #35
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Dockhead,

Make your life easy, get something like this. We can adjust the outhaul at any time with just a the push of a button. With our new tri radial cut DYS mainsail, I doubt if you'd see much difference if any.
Yes, I did write above already that if I go with in-mast again, it will definitely have a hydraulic or electric furler, which will greatly improve the management of the system. The Selden endless line business is effective, but is quite awkward -- designed apparently for octopuses.

In-mast doesn't suck, as I said, and has a number of advantages, some of them quite significant, and we are FAST, despite the lack of roach.

But I look longingly at the roachy mains on normal rigs . . . . especially the flat-top ones :drool:

I haven't made a definite decision yet.
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Old 08-11-2016, 17:22   #36
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

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OK, I understand.

That wouldn't work for me -- I do a lot of fine control of sail shape with the outhaul and wouldn't be willing to give that up. I probably wouldn't care if I'd never had a loose-footed main or really good sails, but I have and I have.

Sorry for the thread drift.
If you ever have the chance, you might take a look at the sail shape you can dial in with the Leisurefurl. It's probably better than you are imagining. Still, if you really must be tweaking your mainsail all the time, the Leisurefurl probably isn't for you.

By the way, the full-batten boom furling mains can have plenty of roach.
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Old 08-11-2016, 18:09   #37
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, I did write above already that if I go with in-mast again, it will definitely have a hydraulic or electric furler, which will greatly improve the management of the system. The Selden endless line business is effective, but is quite awkward -- designed apparently for octopuses.

In-mast doesn't suck, as I said, and has a number of advantages, some of them quite significant, and we are FAST, despite the lack of roach.

But I look longingly at the roachy mains on normal rigs . . . . especially the flat-top ones :drool:

I haven't made a definite decision yet.
Do you ever actually race? If not, how do you know the difference, do you need to point that close to the wind? I mean... it's not like your boat is even capable of planing like a flat bottomed race boat.

You have a cruising boat.
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:57   #38
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
If you ever have the chance, you might take a look at the sail shape you can dial in with the Leisurefurl. It's probably better than you are imagining. Still, if you really must be tweaking your mainsail all the time, the Leisurefurl probably isn't for you.

By the way, the full-batten boom furling mains can have plenty of roach.
Well, if I get a chance, I will sail on a boat with this and have a look.
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Old 09-11-2016, 03:03   #39
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

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Do you ever actually race? If not, how do you know the difference, do you need to point that close to the wind? I mean... it's not like your boat is even capable of planing like a flat bottomed race boat.

You have a cruising boat.
I really, really like to sail. I like to sail well, and I like to sail fast.

And I have been conditioned by three 1500 mile trips against the wind, to care a whole lot about pointing ability. This year, I tacked the entire way across the Central Baltic. When you leave Point A for Point B, and Point B is dead upwind, and is several hundred miles away, believe me -- you care very, very much about every tenth of a knot VMG to windward.

Sailing upwind is the whole art of sailing, and it's not easy to get a cruising boat upwind. 5 knots VMG to windward over a wide range of conditions has been the holy grail for me, which despite investment of tens of thousands of pounds and a lot of work, I haven't quite achieved yet.

So considering all that -- I guess you can see why I am drooling over roachy flat-top mainsails.
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Old 09-11-2016, 04:12   #40
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

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I really, really like to sail. I like to sail well, and I like to sail fast.

And I have been conditioned by three 1500 mile trips against the wind, to care a whole lot about pointing ability. This year, I tacked the entire way across the Central Baltic. When you leave Point A for Point B, and Point B is dead upwind, and is several hundred miles away, believe me -- you care very, very much about every tenth of a knot VMG to windward.

Sailing upwind is the whole art of sailing, and it's not easy to get a cruising boat upwind. 5 knots VMG to windward over a wide range of conditions has been the holy grail for me, which despite investment of tens of thousands of pounds and a lot of work, I haven't quite achieved yet.

So considering all that -- I guess you can see why I am drooling over roachy flat-top mainsails.
Then why don't you trade your Moody in for something like a J boat or a fancy go fast Italian job where the money spent on fancy sails will make more sense?

Otherwise, it's like bragging about having the fastest Range Rover.
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Old 09-11-2016, 04:38   #41
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

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Then why don't you trade your Moody in for something like a J boat or a fancy go fast Italian job where the money spent on fancy sails will make more sense?

Otherwise, it's like bragging about having the fastest Range Rover.
I'm not sure why you think there's anything strange about a fast Range Rover:

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J-boats and "fast Italian jobs" are totally wrong for my kind of cruising. I'm getting ready for Svalbard and Greenland.

Even my Moody will wipe the floor with race-trimmed Beneteau Firsts and J's under 50 feet, anyway, since I upgraded sails and rigging.

So it is not at all unrealistic, to combine heavy duty long distance cruising ability, with very good sailing performance. The next boat must be both heavier duty, with greater autonomy, and also with much better sailing performance, than my Moody, and I'm sure this can be achieved.
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Old 10-11-2016, 04:42   #42
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

Go fast Rovers have been doing Paris-Dakar for a long time !
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Old 10-11-2016, 07:13   #43
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

Dockhead is an entirely different kind of cruiser than I am. Instead of spending tens of thousands of dollars eeking out the last tenth of a knot, I will crank the engine and burn a half a gallon an hour and motorsail and achieve the same or similar VMG.
But I don't see him in an IP either, way too slow

In my opinion as a furling boom owner, it is not what he would be happy with. I see a furling boom as a great labor saver and I believe better performance than most in mast furling sails for the average cruiser due to battens and roach, but it is not I think a true performance sail. I am not nor have I ever raced, but I'd bet you see darn few race boats with furling booms, and I think what Dockhead wants is race boat performance.
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Old 10-11-2016, 07:17   #44
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

Oh, and I agree with Ken's fast Range Rover statement, with enough money you can make anything fast, but it is usually far less expensive and far more reliable to buy something that was from the beginning designed to be fast as opposed to being highly modified to go fast.
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Old 10-11-2016, 08:17   #45
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Re: In Boom Furling experiences?

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Oh, and I agree with Ken's fast Range Rover statement, with enough money you can make anything fast, but it is usually far less expensive and far more reliable to buy something that was from the beginning designed to be fast as opposed to being highly modified to go fast.
And... if I put racing sails on my Oyster 53, it's never going to go as fast or point as high as a dedicated racing boat when compared side by side. No matter how much I wish it to be so. The fancy sails will look fast, but they cannot alter the hull shape of a cruising style and equipped yacht, even when the racing sails are trimmed properly.
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