Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-06-2019, 19:26   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,054
Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

We're looking for collective wisdom from those who have deployed, and retrieved, a JSD. Preferably anyone that has done it either single handed or as a crew of two.

The discussion over at Morgans Cloud is currently discussing the idea of putting dyneema loops in the main dyneema rode about a boat length apart and taking that to a block at the front of the boat in order to ease the task of winching directly onto a stern quarter spin winch. I'm also not sure if that is also to take it to the windlass capstan?

If there are just the two of you, John at Morgans Cloud suggests one can tail on the winch while the other does the winching, but we operate under the principle that each of us should be able to do pretty much everything alone in case one of us is incapacitated. So how to retrieve the JSD singe handed is the question.

Ideas anyone?

SWL, have you two got this sorted? How would you spice in the loops suggested by Morgans Cloud? There is the suggestion ( untested as far as I know) that a Brummel spliced loop may weaken the JSD rode as it is being cranked in, do you agree with that?
__________________

BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 03:57   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 35,372
Images: 241
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

JSD LAUNCHING and RETRIEVAL:
https://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_6.htm
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 05:38   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,054
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Thanks Gord for the response.

Apologies, I should not have omitted that the rode under consideration was all dyneema.

Because it is slippery, you can't put a rolling hitch or Prussik on it with a retrieval line to pull it in, as per the link you posted that would have been appropriate for a rode of DB or nylon.

To detail a bit further, you also can have issues with the cones getting fouled or damaged in the winch self tailer, if you just try and winch in the JSD cones, but you can have a crew tail the winch and bring the dyneema in with several wraps on the drum. It is very hard work, from all accounts I have read or heard about.

For example after trying it manually winching the JSD in, Morgans Cloud then used their Milwaukee winch drill and it took 5 batteries worth to get it in!

So how to do this alone, with all dyneema rode, is the question.
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 05:42   #4
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: KM Yachtbuilder’s Bestevaer 49
Posts: 13,808
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
SWL, have you two got this sorted? How would you spice in the loops suggested by Morgans Cloud? There is the suggestion ( untested as far as I know) that a Brummel spliced loop may weaken the JSD rode as it is being cranked in, do you agree with that?
I watched the video Conachair posted a link to discussing this. Personally, I would not splice in loops. Two reasons: I think you will get about a 20% reduction in the strength of the line with a single bit of line spliced in (that is the drop recorded with load tests if you leave the tail of a buried splice sticking out completely in single braid UHMWPE and this is probably a similar situation), and then you need a very long length sticking out with an eye splice at the end of it. I would not bury any portion that has the eye splice bury in it as that may weaken the line more than 20%.

For single handed retrieval, if you wanted something you could attach a retrieval line to, spaced from where it is reachable at the rear of the boat to the furthest winch, I would do this via seperate sections with eye splices at the end of them, not by inserting these into the line.

I have never retrieved a drogue, so the following is only speculated from watching videos, but I think once you had reached the section with cones, if you looped the line around one of the winches on the opposite side of the cockpit you could wind in with one hand and tail with the other, as long as the boat’s speed was no more than a couple of knots. I think it was Dashew who reported that retrieval was not difficult once the cones were around the winch.

I will be attaching a retrieval line from the bridle junction to the boat so that the leader could at least be put on a winch.

SWL
__________________
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 05:52   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 4,531
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
So how to do this alone, with all dyneema rode, is the question.
Can't help with a connection to the dyneema, but to get some force I've rigged a loop before with a few turns round the anchor windlass capstan then back to the cockpit with another line attached to the join as a hauling line. Worked great in a boatyard with a remote. Might be worth a play though takes a few blocks to get the lead on/off the captan right.
conachair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 06:11   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,054
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Thanks SWL, I think I'm with you on both not splicing in loops on the JSD rode itself, and using a retrieval line of DB to pull in the 14mm Acera bridle.

I might be able to get the main line onto one of our electric Andersens at the helm, in which case it would be easier to self tail it from the drum. Will have to do some more thinking about it.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 07:22   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
mikereed100's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cat in Chile, trawler in Ventura
Boat: 46' custom cat, Roughwater 41 trawler
Posts: 1,785
Images: 2
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

I can only offer my experience of a single retrieval, but we simply pulled it in over the forward crossbeam of our cat by hand. The process was very simple and quick and left me wondering what all the fuss is about. When it came time for retrieval I attached a line to the starboard bridle leg, then ran the line outside the rigging to the bow. We then released the port side bridle leg followed by the starboard leg. The boat spun into the wind and I began retrieving it using the large primary winches in our forward cockpit while my brother guided it over the forward crossbeam. The cones quickly became fouled on the winch but while I cleared them my brother simply continued to haul in the drogue by hand. The whole process took about 15 minutes. Wind was 10-15 knots and seas about 2 meters.

In a previous discussion here Evans Starzinger, who has retrieved JSDs several times, pointed out that on his boat he would not feel safe at the bow in the conditions in which he retrieved the JSD and that running the drogue from the bow back to the cockpit would be problematic, so maybe my method is more boat-specific. We have a cat with a forward cockpit so, while my brother hauled in the drogue I simply flaked it onto the floor of the cockpit. Retrieval over the bow allows you to use the engines to relieve strain on the drogue if necessary. In our case the conditions were light enough that we did not need to use the engines, but that would have been an option if there were more wind. I notice that you have a cat as well so you might want to give this a try to see if it works for you before going to the trouble of splicing in loops etc.
__________________
Mike

www.sailblogs.com/member/rumdoxy

Come to the dark side. We have cookies.
mikereed100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 08:06   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 262
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

When you do this in 'real life' you pretty quickly learn there are two different cases, which are somewhat different than doing it 'in practice'.

Case 1 is if you want to get going decently quickly, there is still some breeze and some decent swell/waves. In this case, you get a quite a bit of 'surging load' as you go up a wave (you slow down) and you go down a wave (you accelerate). To recover drogue you put one (or two) wraps on a winch and pull when you decelerate (and there is very little load) and hold when you accelerate. You can accentuate this surging by having little to no sail area up.

This scenario is VERY hard on powered winches, because they try to power thru the peak surges - you are very likily to get winch heating and/or stalling. You can manually winch it this way singlehanded - because when you are winching the load is very small and then you just hold the tail while the load surges - but this is slower than the pull as much as you can and hold method. My memory is that Susanne uses a combo of these two approaches.

Case 2 is when you wait a bit longer, or the storm just simply totally dies off and you have no wind - this is less common but does sometimes happen. In this case you just simply float around and pull the thing in by hand.

People don't seem much used to doing things by hand anymore.

and as an aside - puller lines with the proper grip hitch will, in fact, hold enough on dyneema for this application. A Prusik will hold over 850lbs 9pulling 12mm dyneema), and really you should not be recovering it with more load on it than that (slow down damn it!). And an icicle will hold more. Tony Gooch, a vastly experienced guy in high latitudes (more my generation and somewhat forgotten now) did this for his series recovery (which he did many times in the southern ocean).

Bottom line, quite a bit of this fuss about recovery may be from people who have either done it zero or one time in 'actual anger/real conditions'. It does take some time to pull in 100m or so, you just need to relax and enjoy being in the cockpit after you survived the storm.

Don't mess around with the rode, don't weaken it or put things on it which might snag junk or wrap/flail cones. This a survival safety device.
Breaking Waves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 08:57   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 54
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

I have a JSD but have never deployed in anger on my 54 footer monohull. There is a lot of advice against a trip line as it apparently gets tangled up with the drogue.
I thought that it might work if one could arrange a trip line when one needs to retrieve it. I have made a 300 mm steel ring (with a gap in it with a gate so it can be slipped over the drogue rode.) A ski rope floating line is attached to the ring which is then allowed to slide down over all the cones to the end of the rode. I have attached a 350mm steel triangle to the end of the rode to stop the ring slipping off rhe end. Hopefully one should be able to haul in the trip line without any resistance from the cones. The floating line should float well away from the jsd.
quandary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 16:36   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,054
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Thank you all, those are all valuable ideas, and very helpful.

I can see the merits of spinning the boat bow to weather, if the sea conditions allow, to retrieve over the forebeam with engine assist.

Just to clarify then retrieval line idea. It is not attached to the end of the JSD, where it is likely to wrap & tangle, but to the apex of the bridle so the bridle can be retrieved, allowing access to the beginning of the mainline.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2019, 23:45   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 54
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Thank you all, those are all valuable ideas, and very helpful.

I can see the merits of spinning the boat bow to weather, if the sea conditions allow, to retrieve over the forebeam with engine assist.

Just to clarify then retrieval line idea. It is not attached to the end of the JSD, where it is likely to wrap & tangle, but to the apex of the bridle so the bridle can be retrieved, allowing access to the beginning of the mainline.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
The idea is that the ring slips over all the cones and falls to the very end of the drogue ie the trip line that is attached to the ring is as long as the drogue. Once it reaches the end, one would pull the drogue in from its outboard end so all the cones would collapse and not be of any resistance. To start, one would have to pull the bridle in to be able to slip the ring over the beginning of the main line. (One could have a permanent line tied to the apex to pull the apex in or simply use one leg of the bridle to pyll the apex in to be able to slip the ring over the main line)
The jsd goes from being almost horizintal when providing max drag to hanging vertically when boat is hardly moving so the ring should easily slide down over the cones to the end when jsd hangs down. The ring would only be applied when one wants to retrieve ...at which time the trip line would not be likely to get tangled with the main line.
quandary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2019, 19:34   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,054
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

That seems quite a viable technique, especially as the chain/anchor at the end of the rode will, as you say, hang down more vertically once the weather and sea state has abated enough to consider retrieval.

Thanks, I like it.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2019, 05:00   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 262
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Thanks, I like it.
pls - before you go offshore, at least give it a try before deciding it is 'the solution'.

I would simply point out two things - #1 you are now hauling twice the length back on board (the recovery line plus the drogue) and #2 there will still be significant drag from the cones even when they are facing backward (150ish of them still creating water turbulence).

You may like it, however, I know people who have actually tried very similar ideas, and all have abandoned them. As I tried to say above, I think people are overthinking and over complicating this.

If you want an 'easier to recover' solution - the more 'proven' answer (eg the people who have tried it in real life have liked it) is to use a 2 or 3 or 4 element drogue (using bigger elements than jsd). That provides the sort of smooth drag of the JSD, while allowing long lengths of cone free line you can winch cleanly.
Breaking Waves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2019, 11:00   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,054
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Yes, I certainly would try it in controlled conditions before relying on it for real. Same for how a parachute anchor is set up for deployment & retrieval, and I have posted on that before. So try before you buy is always a good idea before committing to equipment or techniques that are intended for severe weather application, totally agree.

But it seems to me the drag from pulling the JSD in backwards would be very manageable and faster compared to the alternative.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2019, 11:03   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,054
Re: Ideas on JSD retrieval with short handed crew

Can you describe the multi element drogue you are referring to? Is it long enough to not pull out of a steep wave face?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
crew

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
JSD ver1.3 Lars_L Anchoring & Mooring 0 11-11-2018 13:40
400: Chain Plates for JSD b_rodwell Lagoon Catamarans 2 06-04-2016 16:50
Beneteau 40.7 as a Short-Handed Bluewater Cruiser ? jannw Monohull Sailboats 7 01-06-2012 22:15
Jeanneau Sun Fast 36 - Short-Handed Setup hoppy Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 3 17-09-2010 13:36
SHORT HANDED PACIFIC EAST TO WEST meyermm General Sailing Forum 17 21-01-2008 22:17



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.