Hydranet triradial vs. 3Di Nordac/Endurance

[teipafe]

Hi everyone, I am about to renew the sails (furled main and furled jib) for my Najad 405. I'm not a racer and my plan is to sail in blue water seas, so my main requirement is reliability and durability with a good compromise on shape. After some research I ended up to two alternatives: Hydranet triradial or 3Di Nordac/Endurance.
Hydranet is a very well know product overly tested and I think I have no doubt about it. Regarding the 3Di Nordac, that is a more recent product, I read many good things. Among the others I like that it's one piece, i.e. there are no sewings and in, in case of break, can easily repair with glue.
Considering that 3Di Nordac is also 30% less expensive than Hydranet triradial (haven't got the proposal for 3Di Endurance), which means saving about 5 KEUR, I am really considering it.
I read some posts about this topic, but they are all quite old and seemed to be more pro-Hydranet. What would be your opinion today? Has anyone tried 3Di on a furled mast? Has anyone experienced or heard about any problem with 3Di in general?

[Pete7]

Can't help with an answer, but will be interesting to see how the 3DI Endurance is priced against the Hydranet when you get a quote.

Wonder what North mean "for small and medium sized yachts" for the Norlac and is this a cheap alternative with a 3DI label to make it sound modern/posh?

Pete

[Bill O]

We went with the DP Proradial instead of the Hydranet. Same loom used as the Hydranet so the material can be used for radial sails, but was much less expensive. We did look at North's comparable fabric (at the time) and went w/the DP that had a good track record. While we have a main from North, they seem to be a bit trendy in their materials, switching them often (because they don't last/work well??).

Been using our radial genoa for 5 years and it's holding up well. We went with a tapered rope luff for better reefing shape and that also has been working well. Only down side of the rope luff is you sometimes end up w/a "fatty" when rolled up, but that's only occasionally and is usually user error when rolling up in light air.

Hydranet has been used on Amels as the stock sail and the sails usually lasted many years. IMO don't want a sail that won't last long and will go w/a tired & true fabric.


Bill O.

[Pete7]

TP, btw have you seen this for the life expectancy of North Sails. Did you say you planned on going water sailing">blue water sailing?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...?do=file&id=44

[Bill O]

Thanks Pete for the upload of the blue paper.

The expected lifespan is:

5 years for North Panel Cloth Coastal and Radian sails, 4 Years for North Panel Laminate Tour sails and 3 years for 3Di Endurance Sails.

Guess that's not to bad for a laminate sail. The short lifespan of laminates and generally a catastrophic failure of the material when they did go would be a no go in my book, but many do like the performance aspects of them and find it an acceptable trade off.


Bill O.

[Pete7]

I want these, black sails are so last year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2eWTYgLOKU

[Kestrahl]

3di Nordac mite be less expensive, that is because it is made from polyester, and Hydra-net has a high percentage of dyneema so it is hardly a fair comparison. How much do polyester ropes cost compared to dyneema.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

3di Nordac mite be less expensive, that is because it is made from polyester, and Hydra-net has a high percentage of dyneema so it is hardly a fair comparison. How much do polyester ropes cost compared to dyneema.

The DP Proradial is also a UV treated polyester (aka dacron) w/the same weave/loom used on the Hydranet. The price comparison would be between the Proradial and the 3Di Nordac. At least from the brochure, it didn't look like you could do a radial sail w/the Nordac, while one can w/the Proradial.


Bill O.

[wingssail]

With furling main and head sails on a non-racing boat you don't need high tech radial cut or laminated sails. I recommend dacron sails. You have already given up on top performance with your rig choice so why pay extra for high tech sails when good quality dacron will give adequate performance that suits your boat, and much longer durability. And any sailmaker anywhere can repair them 5 or 10 years down the line when they start to give out due to sun exposure.

I have a full set of laminated racing sails, including carbon fiber, membrane, main and genoa. But we also have a full set of dacron sails which we use for cruising. They perform well, and it saves the high tech sails for racing.

And to save money we just bought a dacron, cross cut, #3 jib, for racing. It is brilliant and for the few times we will use it each year I think it makes sense. It cost 1/4 the price of a high tech laminated sail.

We order all of our sails from China lofts.

[boom23]

All serious cruisers I met in the S. Pacific were going with Hydranet for their performance and longevity. A NZ sailmaker, and the Amel sailmaker, which I met, recommended Hydranet.
I'm not an expert on sail cloths, but, according to what I've heard, for cruising longevity it's hard to beat Hydranet.

[BigBeakie]

We looked closely at, and rejected, Norths Nordac solely because it is not suitable for multihulls. Multihulls have very high Righting Moment, which means they do not heel over and relieve pressure on the sail, so Dacron sails stretch out of shape quickly on a multihull.

3Di Endurance is Norths material for multihulls, and the cost vs benefit comparing DP Hydranet vs Norths Endurance was a clear winner for Hydranet for us, for bluewater voyaging.

This lack of more affordable sail material options for bluewater multihulls is a gap in Norths offerings that was a bit disappointing when we were looking, and we waited months when our local Norths loft kept promising that a new 3Di cloth for multihulls was being "tested". It ended up, after a long wait, being virtually the same price as 3Di Endurance, so we went Hydranet.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by Bill O

The DP Proradial is also a UV treated polyester (aka dacron) w/the same weave/loom used on the Hydranet. The price comparison would be between the Proradial and the 3Di Nordac. At least from the brochure, it didn't look like you could do a radial sail w/the Nordac, while one can w/the Proradial.

Bill O.

The weaving they do for the Hydra-Net and DP Proradial, the warp yarns jump out of the weave, and skip over it then back in, which eliminates a lot of the crimp.

3Di is made over a mold with multiple layers of thin tapes laminated together running in various directions, so it is one piece and strong in just about every direction, this is what gives it the high performance.

[TomNH]

There’s quite a bit of uninformed opinion here. I replaced our sails last year with 3di Nordac. I considered the options you are and debated quite a bit, including with highly regarded local sailmakers. My boat is fairly hefty (14tonnes, 43’) and the sheet loads are large (the primaries are 66s, and merit it) - she’s definitely a ‘performance cruiser’. The old sails were North radial cut panelled laminates, and set Ok (I’m an old racer, and care about these things).

As others have written 3di is not a woven cloth and, whilst Nordacs use Dacron fibre, it is not spun into thread nor subject to crimp through weaving. This changes it’s stretch characteristics quite significantly from woven cloth. North’s salesmen claim it stretches less than hydranet.

My sails are great. My experiences of dealing with Norths were acceptable, but not brilliant - some good guys, some not so much. The boat is much quicker and closer winded. Numbers lie, in that there’s more sail area than before, but I’m about 22% faster unreefed close reaching by comparison with my old polars. What I can’t answer is about durability: mine still look like new, but who knows what will happen over time.

[teipafe]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Can't help with an answer, but will be interesting to see how the 3DI Endurance is priced against the Hydranet when you get a quote.

Wonder what North mean "for small and medium sized yachts" for the Norlac and is this a cheap alternative with a 3DI label to make it sound modern/posh?

Pete

Hi Pete,
I have received the quote from NS also for the 3Di Endurance and, compared to DP-HN is about 7% cheaper. Other points to consider related to 3Di Endurance:
1) It is about 15% lighter in weight than Hydranet
2) It is made of of Dyneema with Aramid (I am not interested in the Carbon + Aramid) so duration and shape longevity are supposed to be better
3) As with all the 3Di, it's one cut, hence no sewing

I still haven't made my final decision, but I must confess that 3Di is on top of Hydranet in my list and if I can get an additional discount from North Sails, then it will be even better

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by teipafe

Hi Pete,
I have received the quote from NS also for the 3Di Endurance and, compared to DP-HN is about 7% cheaper. Other points to consider related to 3Di Endurance:
1) It is about 15% lighter in weight than Hydranet
2) It is made of of Dyneema with Aramid (I am not interested in the Carbon + Aramid) so duration and shape longevity are supposed to be better
3) As with all the 3Di, it's one cut, hence no sewing

I still haven't made my final decision, but I must confess that 3Di is on top of Hydranet in my list and if I can get an additional discount from North Sails, then it will be even better

Its surprising that the 3Di endurance would be cheaper than Hydra-Net, either your getting a good deal on the 3Di or a bad deal on the Hydra-Net!

The Hydra-Net will ultimately last longer, but won't be as quick around the race track and to windward. Reaching and running in the open ocean there isn't a big difference is speed, and the 3di puts a lot of strain on the standing and running rigging when the boat is bouncing around for days on end. The HNR is more forgiving.

The other thing people fail to consider is how the sail is going to be finished. I remember chatting to a Swedish lady on the dock here in SE and the conversation went something like this.. "oh your a sailmaker" then in a posh voice "we have North Sails".. slight pause "can you re-sew the UV cover on our genoa the stitching is falling out" - Ah... No Sorry.. I only design now and we use Tenara thread on our cruising sails.