Hydranet triradial vs. 3Di Nordac/Endurance

[teipafe]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

Its surprising that the 3Di endurance would be cheaper than Hydra-Net, either your getting a good deal on the 3Di or a bad deal on the Hydra-Net!

The Hydra-Net will ultimately last longer, but won't be as quick around the race track and to windward. Reaching and running in the open ocean there isn't a big difference is speed, and the 3di puts a lot of strain on the standing and running rigging when the boat is bouncing around for days on end. The HNR is more forgiving.

The other thing people fail to consider is how the sail is going to be finished. I remember chatting to a Swedish lady on the dock here in SE and the conversation went something like this.. "oh your a sailmaker" then in a posh voice "we have North Sails".. slight pause "can you re-sew the UV cover on our genoa the stitching is falling out" - Ah... No Sorry.. I only design now and we use Tenara thread on our cruising sails.

Thank you Kestrahl! May I ask you to explain better why you say that “the 3di puts a lot of strain on the standing and running rigging when the boat is bouncing around for days on end. The HNR is more forgiving.”?

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by teipafe

Thank you Kestrahl! May I ask you to explain better why you say that “the 3di puts a lot of strain on the standing and running rigging when the boat is bouncing around for days on end. The HNR is more forgiving.”?

When they first came out there was a lot of breakages on older race yachts from the extra shock loads. I've had a few cruisers comment that there is less shock loading and more comfortable sailing even going from spectra laminate sails to Hydra-Net ( ocean crossings ).

North 3Di - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

[RELENTLESS 1]

We are looking into North Sails 3Di Endurance 760. According to them there will be near zero stretch, plus very high UV resistance in this sail(s).

"The Hydra-Net will ultimately last longer, but won't be as quick around the race track and to windward. Reaching and running in the open ocean there isn't a big difference is speed, and the 3di puts a lot of strain on the standing and running rigging when the boat is bouncing around for days on end. The HNR is more forgiving"

This is puzzling- and I may be wrong. HNR will not be quick around the track - okay. If the 3Di is loading the rig then reef. If the HNR is 'forgiving' that sounds like a euphemism for stretching i.e. loss of shape and performance - and even a non-engineer like me knows that cycling like that causes far more material degradation than something stiffer. (flogging =$$) And performance does matter - speed (relatively say 2kts) is safety - away from squall, storm and in general getting to port sooner.

Furthermore a sail that isn't stretching would seem to last much longer - the death of them appears to be the unavoidable chafe over their lifetime.
We are within weeks of placing our order and am looking into Elvstrom also - so any and all experienced input would be greatly appreciated

I would like to see the quotes though. From the research/blogs the 3Di is about 35% lighter than HNR. BUT it is twice the price - at least the quote I have in hand. The Laminates for the other Code sails are a bit cheaper than the quotes we have from Incidence.

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by Dawntreader2

We are looking into North Sails 3Di Endurance 760. According to them there will be near zero stretch, plus very high UV resistance in this sail(s).

"The Hydra-Net will ultimately last longer, but won't be as quick around the race track and to windward. Reaching and running in the open ocean there isn't a big difference is speed, and the 3di puts a lot of strain on the standing and running rigging when the boat is bouncing around for days on end. The HNR is more forgiving"

This is puzzling- and I may be wrong. HNR will not be quick around the track - okay. If the 3Di is loading the rig then reef. If the HNR is 'forgiving' that sounds like a euphemism for stretching i.e. loss of shape and performance - and even a non-engineer like me knows that cycling like that causes far more material degradation than something stiffer. (flogging =$$) And performance does matter - speed (relatively say 2kts) is safety - away from squall, storm and in general getting to port sooner.

Furthermore a sail that isn't stretching would seem to last much longer - the death of them appears to be the unavoidable chafe over their lifetime.
We are within weeks of placing our order and am looking into Elvstrom also - so any and all experienced input would be greatly appreciated

I would like to see the quotes though. From the research/blogs the 3Di is about 35% lighter than HNR. BUT it is twice the price - at least the quote I have in hand. The Laminates for the other Code sails are a bit cheaper than the quotes we have from Incidence.

More forgiving - yes it has more elasticity, the warp yarns straighten under load, and the cloth moves on the bias.
Woven dyneema cloth has massively more cycles than a carbon based laminate even if it does move more.
Loss of performance - only upwind, don't forget the sail foil shape is designed for maximum performance upwind. The ideal foil shape for reaching is deeper and more draft aft..
Good luck getting 2 knots more speed from your 3di sails. More like 0.2 knots and that is only going to be to windward if the hydra-net is old an out of shape.
But go for it We love replacing all the glue based sails that only make it half way around the world!

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by teipafe

Hi everyone, I am about to renew the sails (furled main and furled jib) for my Najad 405. I'm not a racer and my plan is to sail in blue water seas, so my main requirement is reliability and durability with a good compromise on shape. After some research I ended up to two alternatives: Hydranet triradial or 3Di Nordac/Endurance.
Hydranet is a very well know product overly tested and I think I have no doubt about it. Regarding the 3Di Nordac, that is a more recent product, I read many good things. Among the others I like that it's one piece, i.e. there are no sewings and in, in case of break, can easily repair with glue.
Considering that 3Di Nordac is also 30% less expensive than Hydranet triradial (haven't got the proposal for 3Di Endurance), which means saving about 5 KEUR, I am really considering it.
I read some posts about this topic, but they are all quite old and seemed to be more pro-Hydranet. What would be your opinion today? Has anyone tried 3Di on a furled mast? Has anyone experienced or heard about any problem with 3Di in general?

Just replaced sails on a Najad 400 here in SE Asia. The aramid based cruising laminate sails they had lasted about 4 years. New sails made from https://www.nautosphere.com/ Will get them back to the UK and still look like new to sell the boat.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dawntreader2

We are looking into North Sails 3Di Endurance 760. According to them there will be near zero stretch, plus very high UV resistance in this sail(s).

"The Hydra-Net will ultimately last longer, but won't be as quick around the race track and to windward. Reaching and running in the open ocean there isn't a big difference is speed, and the 3di puts a lot of strain on the standing and running rigging when the boat is bouncing around for days on end. The HNR is more forgiving"

This is puzzling- and I may be wrong. HNR will not be quick around the track - okay. If the 3Di is loading the rig then reef. If the HNR is 'forgiving' that sounds like a euphemism for stretching i.e. loss of shape and performance - and even a non-engineer like me knows that cycling like that causes far more material degradation than something stiffer. (flogging =$$) And performance does matter - speed (relatively say 2kts) is safety - away from squall, storm and in general getting to port sooner.

Furthermore a sail that isn't stretching would seem to last much longer - the death of them appears to be the unavoidable chafe over their lifetime.
We are within weeks of placing our order and am looking into Elvstrom also - so any and all experienced input would be greatly appreciated

I would like to see the quotes though. From the research/blogs the 3Di is about 35% lighter than HNR. BUT it is twice the price - at least the quote I have in hand. The Laminates for the other Code sails are a bit cheaper than the quotes we have from Incidence.

You will save money buy buying low tech sails for cruising. The 3di and HNR are great for bragging in the bar, shows how cool you are, but they will need replacing long before the Dacron equivalent sails will. If you race, buy some great sails for racing. If you just cruise, buy durable, cheap, dacron; you won't notice the difference. If, like me, you do both, buy sails for each purpose. I keep a full set of carbon string sails, plus several spinnakers, but I cruise with low tech Dacron, and we're still fast. Of course you lose bragging rights.

[RELENTLESS 1]

I should have made it clear that the boat on order is a 51' performance cruising cat. From what I have read and feedback from other owners the Dacron are just not strong enough, and very heavy - I don't want to hang chain mail on a rotating carbon mast. I expect reasonable durability not 10 years worth. We chose the boat because we LIKE sailing, and with the tillers it is a real joy to have her perform. We might get high performance sails once we get back to SoCal and the light air and benign sailing. But that is 3-5 years and God willing some 25,000+ miles away. We do expect to be mostly Trade Wind and Milk Run sailing so the Downwind/Reaching sails will be very important starting out, so we do want to find a good compromise and I don't think Dacron is it. Thank you for the input though.

[Jim Cate]

The 3di and HNR are great for bragging in the bar, shows how cool you are, but they will need replacing long before the Dacron equivalent sails will.

Can't agree with that, Fred. Hydranet radial will, in our experience, outlast dacron by a big margin, both in terms of shape and general wear and tear. Stuff is more resistant to stretch, UV and chafe than dacron. We're pretty impressed with our HNR main and genoa, now 5 and 4 yeas of full time cruising old and looking very good indeed.

My only bitch with the HNr is that the cloth is very stiff and thus hard to flake well and get into the boom bag. Something I curse at times, but then I smile w hen we set t
it again.

Can't say anything about laminates... no personal experience.

Jim

PS Not too worried about bragging in YC bars... haven't been in one for decades.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Can't agree with that, Fred. Hydranet radial will, in our experience, outlast dacron by a big margin, both in terms of shape and general wear and tear. Stuff is more resistant to stretch, UV and chafe than dacron. We're pretty impressed with our HNR main and genoa, now 5 and 4 yeas of full time cruising old and looking very good indeed...

Guess I missed some facts and learned something too.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Can't agree with that, Fred. Hydranet radial will, in our experience, outlast dacron by a big margin, both in terms of shape and general wear and tear. Stuff is more resistant to stretch, UV and chafe than dacron. We're pretty impressed with our HNR main and genoa, now 5 and 4 yeas of full time cruising old and looking very good indeed.

My only bitch with the HNr is that the cloth is very stiff and thus hard to flake well and get into the boom bag. Something I curse at times, but then I smile when we set it again.

We have the DP Proradial for our triradial genoa and is made with the same loom and finish as the Hydranet, but is dacron/dacron instead of the dyneema(UHMWPE)/dacron weave.
Our sail is also very stiff (still) with great performance and due to the stiffness is a bit of a pain to fold it on deck if we need to take it off the roller.
Have no long term direct comparison under the same conditions between the ProRadial and HN cloth, but the similarity between the 2 is the same weave and finish. This make me wonder if the finish and weave is the bigger factor in the DP cloth performance and durability??


Bill O.

[MartinR]

Hydranet will probably last 5 times longer than the laminate. There is really no reason to buy laminate sails for a 40´boat. Also, why use radial cut? There is very little performance increase compared to cross cut.

Probably, all considered, a high quality Dacron cloth like Marblehead would be the best choice.

Laminates will only bring marginally better performance to smaller cruising boats. As others have pointed out, they perform slightly better upwind, but are less trimmable. For larger boats, the equation changes, as the weight savings going to laminates are considerable.

Also, for a cruising boat, you have to look at the failure mode. A laminate fails normally disastrously, while Dacron/Hydranet gives fair warning.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Dawntreader2

I should have made it clear that the boat on order is a 51' performance cruising cat. From what I have read and feedback from other owners the Dacron are just not strong enough, and very heavy - I don't want to hang chain mail on a rotating carbon mast. I expect reasonable durability not 10 years worth. We chose the boat because we LIKE sailing, and with the tillers it is a real joy to have her perform. We might get high performance sails once we get back to SoCal and the light air and benign sailing. But that is 3-5 years and God willing some 25,000+ miles away. We do expect to be mostly Trade Wind and Milk Run sailing so the Downwind/Reaching sails will be very important starting out, so we do want to find a good compromise and I don't think Dacron is it. Thank you for the input though.

We just got delivery of our Seawind 1160 Lite catamaran. History of Corsair trimaran racing, and had a Seawind 1000 cat - with Pentex sails - before upsizing. We like sailing, including sailing to weather instead of motoring. We spend four months cruising every other year. Our sails are made from Dimension Polyant Lite Skin GPL. And yeah, we sail right past a lot of boats here in the Bahamas. Is it a race - no! But I like getting to next anchorage early and it sure extends our get-there-before-dark range. We do get some "you spent too much on sails" and "overkill" comments, but then again their norm is probably 45 deg AWA and/or run the engines. Ours is a new cat. Sails were about 3-4 percent of the budget. When these wear out, I'm sure there will be some sail cloth even better available. Mine were made by Neil Tasker at Barracouta Sails in Australia. Shipped them to USA.

[malbert73]

Nothing says “hardcore sailing cruiser” than sails like that and a stackpack rigged on the boom[emoji3]

I like it!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Thanks Pete for the upload of the blue paper.

The expected lifespan is:

5 years for North Panel Cloth Coastal and Radian sails, 4 Years for North Panel Laminate Tour sails and 3 years for 3Di Endurance Sails.

Guess that's not to bad for a laminate sail. The short lifespan of laminates and generally a catastrophic failure of the material when they did go would be a no go in my book, but many do like the performance aspects of them and find it an acceptable trade off.


Bill O.

Just one data point on laminate sails --



Which may add some evidence that newer laminate technology is very different and much longer lasting than the original.


I have carbon/technora laminate sails made from Bainbridge cloth by a respected English sailmaker. For durability they have taffeta on both sides, so not the lightest sails in the world, but still about half the weight of the previous Dacron sails. I'm in my fifth year of hard sailing with them including three round trips to the end of the Baltic Sea and back to the Solent, and one round trip to Northern Greenland and back to Cowes, which is about 13,000 miles.



I use them very carefully, especially what concerns chafe, but these are long trips in high latitudes so lots of tough weather, very many Force 8 days, so I find the lack of any signs of wear to be remarkable -- they are not so far showing the slightest sign of wear and the shape has not changed at all. There is not the slightest sign of delamination and no mildew despite the damp climate. They were expensive, but having provided so many thousands of miles of excellent sailing, and with no end in sight, I am now considering this the best money I ever spent on my boat. Woven sails, including I think Hydranet, would have long since lost their shape -- I suppose I would have had to replace them a couple of times already to maintain a good shape.



So I would recommend to the OP that he give some thought to laminate. These are not your father's laminate sails! -- the "short lifespan of laminate sails" may no longer be based on fact. I used to think this was true also, but my sailmaker that the newer materials last 2 to 3 times longer than the old ones used to. I was somewhat skeptical then, but not anymore.



So I personally will never have anything else than laminate sails, on any boat. The joy of sailing with really good sails is pretty hard to describe. Suddenly all your controls have a big effect. Suddenly you can vary the sail shape from full and powerful to flat and dragless and everything in between, and you can really sail, especially upwind. Furthermore you can sail in rather higher wind speeds without reefing, because you can flatten the sail to reduce drag when it blows.



I had the same question about using non-traditional sails with in-mast furling, but I can say now that the thinner and more flexible your sails are, the better in-mast furling works. People who have trouble with in-mast furling are mostly, I'm convinced, trying to furl baggy, thick Dacron sails which don't want to roll up into a thin roll. Laminate is a totally different ballgame.


For the mainsail of an in-mast furling boat, which lives a charmed life rolled up inside the mast, and which can be fairly easily isolated from chafe on most boats, I think one might even consider a racing sail without the taffeta. This would be cheaper, much lighter (I guess the taffeta is half the weight), roll up even that much better, and be super cool.





Also a good laminate mainsail will let you claw back a ton of the performance you lose with in-mast furling. Laminate and in-mast furling go together like cookies and cream.

[Adrian Chen]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have carbon/technora laminate sails made from Bainbridge cloth by a respected English sailmaker. For durability they have taffeta on both sides, so not the lightest sails in the world, but still about half the weight of the previous Dacron sails. I'm in my fifth year of hard sailing with them including three round trips to the end of the Baltic Sea and back to the Solent, and one round trip to Northern Greenland and back to Cowes, which is about 13,000 miles.

Thanks for posting that Dockhead - - Just decided on a similar spec for a friends boat, so good to hear your experience. This will also be an inmast sail.