Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-08-2016, 07:48   #16
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,037
Re: Hoyt Booms

Quote:
Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
He patented this idea in 1995.
Jib Boom Data Sheet
John G. Hoyt Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search

Island Packet included the "self vanging" Hoyt boom in its 320 as described in a 1998 article
Island Packet 320

Is what you're talking about older or newer than that?


Mine is a 1987 38, and the boat in the picture is a 38, but I don't know the year. Well before the 0 series boats. I thought mine is a Hoyt, I'll have to look this weekend, I do not think IP built it, I think they bought it.
__________________

__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2016, 08:58   #17
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Hoyt Booms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I could never work on our cutter, either the staysail will be in the way or the inner-forestay. The jibs would need to be way too small.
A major disadvantage of this rig is that you can't have a permanently rigged inner forestay, so no cutter. I should have mentioned that at the beginning.

For me that's a big minus. You can, however, have a removable inner forestay and hank-on staysail. You just furl the jib and stow the boom out of the way.

As to the jib being too small -- not for me. I've written in other threads that my 90% blade jib is just the perfect principle headsail for me in these latitudes. In the Med, maybe it wouldn't be, but up here it is terrific. Same power as the 120% yankee at any wind speed, even the lightest winds, provided the wind is ahead of the beam, with far less drag and heeling and so a much wider wind range. I've never reefed it. A wondersail.

If you use a boom on a blade jib, this greatly increases the efficiency downwind, so makes up for the smaller area downwind.

Which means, net-net, using a boom, one sail replaces a conventional blade jib and conventional overlapping yankee/genoa.


That does however leave the problem of the staysail, which is a problem. I'm not sure whether removeable inner forestay and hank-on staysail is an adequate solution or not. It might be worth the other advantages of this rig.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2016, 09:09   #18
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Hoyt Booms

I'm thinking that to a large degree you're fighting the same kind of resistance/inertia which plagues ; the aero rig, free standing spars, carbon fiber spars, & anything else new. Whether it was invented/demonstrated by Nathanael Herreshoff over a hundred years ago, or by someone else a decade ago. And he showed a Lot of innovations, perhaps "too many".

Look at how long it's taken for catamarans/multihulls to become popular, despite their superiority in lots of aspects. Yet they're thousands of years old. And even Herreshoff couldn't bring them mainstream over a century ago. It took government subsidies in order to make them become common, & later, sought after.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2016, 10:12   #19
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 990
Re: Hoyt Booms

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I run a 135% Genoa, largest I can without new tracks, without any issue, to carry a dinghy on deck takes about 1 min to pull the pin and raise the pole, but you do then lose use of the Staysail, but then your just a Sloop, nothing much wrong with that?


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum
But the very time when you'd really like to have your dinghy stored on deck, offshore in strong winds, is the same time when it would also be really nice to have a staysail as an option. For boats under about 60', it's pretty tough to have a boom on the foredeck and still find room to fit a dinghy beneath it but you can probably fit a conventionally rigged staysail over your dinghy. I think it would be a great thing to be able to have a totally self tending rig when in big wave/wind conditions while offshore so I've been very tempted to add a Hoyt boom. Double reef the main, furl the genoa, and go with just the boomed staysail up front, no need to move from the helm in anything short of a hurricane!

A friend in "our" harbor has a Hoyt boom on his boat and I've admired it. In addition to being self tacking and helping with sail shape off the wind, he says it allows good sail shape along with very tight sheeting angles so he goes to windward much better than ever before. I was almost, almost sold.

But it's important to me to not be stuck with being "just a sloop" with my only option forward of the mast being a big genoa on the furler when the wind really pipes up and I want to sail to windward (been there, done that, not fun!), and I also don't want to give up the option of storing my dinghy on the foredeck during offshore passages. So, that means my best option to accommodate both of those priorities is to stick with my conventionally rigged staysail so my dinghy can still fit beneath it even though 90% of the time I'm coastal cruising where that's not necessary.
__________________
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2016, 10:32   #20
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Hoyt Booms

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
But the very time when you'd really like to have your dinghy stored on deck, offshore in strong winds, is the same time when it would also be really nice to have a staysail as an option. For boats under about 60', it's pretty tough to have a boom on the foredeck and still find room to fit a dinghy beneath it but you can probably fit a conventionally rigged staysail over your dinghy. I think it would be a great thing to be able to have a totally self tending rig when in big wave/wind conditions while offshore so I've been very tempted to add a Hoyt boom. Double reef the main, furl the genoa, and go with just the boomed staysail up front, no need to move from the helm in anything short of a hurricane!

A friend in "our" harbor has a Hoyt boom on his boat and I've admired it. In addition to being self tacking and helping with sail shape off the wind, he says it allows good sail shape along with very tight sheeting angles so he goes to windward much better than ever before. I was almost, almost sold.

But it's important to me to not be stuck with being "just a sloop" with my only option forward of the mast being a big genoa on the furler when the wind really pipes up and I want to sail to windward (been there, done that, not fun!), and I also don't want to give up the option of storing my dinghy on the foredeck during offshore passages. So, that means my best option to accommodate both of those priorities is to stick with my conventionally rigged staysail so my dinghy can still fit beneath it even though 90% of the time I'm coastal cruising where that's not necessary.
I would not be interested in a Hoyt boom for the staysail. A normal staysail works fine. Even a hank-on one would be ok as long as it could be deployed easily (no need to reef them).

One big drawback of a Hoyt boom for the principle headsail is that you can't have a permanently rigged inner foresail, so you cannot be a proper cutter. That's probably the biggest drawback. The KM Yachts owner's boat had a removeable inner forestay with HIghfield lever. The Oyster 485 I almost bought had the same arrangement. Don't know whether that's really satisfactory or not. I do love and need my staysail very much.

Nor do I want a "big genoa on a furler". I don't like these sails, because they are not generally good for going upwind, and have to be reefed very early and then become even worse upwind, and they are not good off the wind, either, because of the clew position. A high clew overlapping yankee works much better off the wind, and I have one of these, but a blade jib is so much more versatile that this will certainly be the principle headsail on my next boat. I think for conditions where the blade is no good (light wind behind the beam), you could go right to a light Code 0 or other light wind sail. No need for a genoa or even a yankee, I think.

The KM Yachts guy said that with a blade on a boom, the downwind performance is improved so much that even this is not really needed.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2016, 11:46   #21
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,037
Re: Hoyt Booms

I'm not getting the Downwind part, wouldn't it be better to run twin headsails and pole them out?
Downwind so far with just the Genoa poled out, it seems I'm better with the main being on the opposite side as opposed to running out the staysail, main of course is bigger.
My Storm sail plan is the staysail, I had it made with much heavier cloth just for that, and I have a inboom furling main, so I can reef as much or as little as I want to.
I have never been in a real storm and hope I never am, but in 30+ kt winds it seems my staysail and main reefed to about the same area as the staysail, works well, boat is trimmed and not much heel and I'm making 6+ kts.

As far as the dinghy, I plan on leaving him in the davits, if the wx gets real bad, I guess I'll set him free
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2016, 14:26   #22
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Hoyt Booms

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I'm not getting the Downwind part, wouldn't it be better to run twin headsails and pole them out?
Downwind so far with just the Genoa poled out, it seems I'm better with the main being on the opposite side as opposed to running out the staysail, main of course is bigger.
My Storm sail plan is the staysail, I had it made with much heavier cloth just for that, and I have a inboom furling main, so I can reef as much or as little as I want to.
I have never been in a real storm and hope I never am, but in 30+ kt winds it seems my staysail and main reefed to about the same area as the staysail, works well, boat is trimmed and not much heel and I'm making 6+ kts.

As far as the dinghy, I plan on leaving him in the davits, if the wx gets real bad, I guess I'll set him free

A few comments to this:

1. Your staysail, if it's heavy enough and the gear is strong, is a perfect storm sail. If it's on a furler and self tacking, then you don't need to go to the foredeck and there's no work involved -- just what you need when the going gets tough.

2. Downwind beauty of a jib on a boom is that you maintain the shape of the sail as you change the angle of attack -- just like a mainsail. No pole needed. The jib will be much more effective downwind like this, and not just dead downwind, but anywhere with the wind behind the beam.

3. I've done the dinghy in davits in ocean conditions and don't recommend it. If you start to go further afield, I recommend finding a dingy which can be folded up for ocean passages. I'm using an Avon Lite 310 RIB which is a very good compromise. Like a big surfboard when deflated and folded, and almost (!) like a real RIB when deployed. I keep it in the davits while sailing coastwise but fold it when on passage.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2016, 15:05   #23
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Hoyt Booms

Another place were something like the hoyts boom excels is heavy reaching conditions. The sail stays flat and can bladed out easily to depower the rig in gusts. Because the clew is constrained and the sail is flat the sail doesn't flog anywhere near as bad as a conventional headsail.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2016, 15:19   #24
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,037
Hoyt Booms

OK I'm getting it, light is coming on.
See my Staysail isn't so hot running DDW or close to it due to its size, it works as if it were poled out, just it too small to be real effective as of course DDW a sail is more of a chute than a wing, but a jib is bigger and would work better.
Although since I can run twin headsails, I am thinking using my 110% Genoa and my 135% would be the ticket for me, just need another pole.

But a 100% or slightly less Jib, why not put it on a boom? Especially if the boom could easily be removed and stowed?


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2016, 15:56   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,898
Re: Hoyt Booms

I am playing with the staysail rig on our small cutter, 33', 16,000lb steel. This is not advice just what I'm playing with and I have no firm conclusions yet.

The forestay has a furling Genoa. About 115%, roughly. Set on a small sprit.

The inner stay is set back so I have maybe three feet between the two stays. The inner stay has a boom fitted to a mount above the deck. The staysail is hanked on.

I mounted a traveler to control the staysail boom. Three lines lead to the cockpit. So I have some adjustment on the "staysail main sheet car position" if you will. This allows me a lot of control and seems to work well from broad to forward of beam. But the sail still kites badly with the wind aft.

Seperatly I had rigged preventers on each side from the toe rail just aft the mast to about 70% back on the boom. They consist of a small 4 purchase vang attached to a hard point near the transom, handy to the cockpit. The forward end goes to a block on the toe rail, with a clip to go to the boom. I have no vang but balancing the two preventers can act as one.

Up to this point 2 seperate issues.

My next innovation was to add a snatch block to the toe rail somewhat ahead of the mast. Then i can take the preventer line off the main boom, run it through the snatch block and use it as a barber haul to pull down and flatten the staysail, stop the kitting. Of course I then loose it as a preventer, but I don't need a preventer in that side in those conditions.

I think I like what I've done but it will have to wait till next season for me to fuss with it more in more conditions to be sure. My initial reflection is its a bit fussy and is NOT for the around the bouy folks. But if you tend to do more cruising with long legs where it is "set it and forget it" then it may prove in. Also I have a pretty big gap between my inner and outer stays, so I can often coax my headsail around without furling.

Pretty hard to visualize all this. I hope I described it sufficiently.

As to the dingy issue.....Porte Bote!
__________________
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2016, 20:51   #26
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Hoyt Booms

Hpeer, the best system I have used is a set of permenantly rigged preventers port and stb for the staysail boom. That way when reaching you can control twist perfectly and lock the boom to leeward, making the foredeck safe. To windward the presenters can be left slack, but the sail can still easily be backed to help out in a tack in lumpy conditions or to heave too.

For a 33 footer the preventers could probably be 1:1. On a bigger boat 2:1 can be handy. In strong conditions they can be led to a winch.

Set up right you may not need the traveller controls much, or at all. The preventers will do the same job.

Only downside is the extra rope, and one more slack line on the windward deck to run the Jackstay around.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2016, 03:39   #27
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,447
Re: Hoyt Booms

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
OK I'm getting it, light is coming on.
See my Staysail isn't so hot running DDW or close to it due to its size, it works as if it were poled out, just it too small to be real effective as of course DDW a sail is more of a chute than a wing, but a jib is bigger and would work better.
Although since I can run twin headsails, I am thinking using my 110% Genoa and my 135% would be the ticket for me, just need another pole.

But a 100% or slightly less Jib, why not put it on a boom? Especially if the boom could easily be removed and stowed?


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum
FWIW, on our previous boat we would run the #3 and #1 as "twins", with only one pole, used on the windward sail. The leeward sail did not require poling out to stay full. If it was rolly we would reef the main to flatten it and sheet it hard amidships... like that it was an excellent roll damper, but did not add any real drive. (That was an IOR boat with a small main and big headsails). We did a lot of relaxed trade wind miles using that setup.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2016, 05:09   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,898
Re: Hoyt Booms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Hpeer, the best system I have used is a set of permenantly rigged preventers port and stb for the staysail boom. That way when reaching you can control twist perfectly and lock the boom to leeward, making the foredeck safe. To windward the presenters can be left slack, but the sail can still easily be backed to help out in a tack in lumpy conditions or to heave too.

For a 33 footer the preventers could probably be 1:1. On a bigger boat 2:1 can be handy. In strong conditions they can be led to a winch.

Set up right you may not need the traveller controls much, or at all. The preventers will do the same job.

Only downside is the extra rope, and one more slack line on the windward deck to run the Jackstay around.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Thanks. Interesting ideas. My short season is done here for the year, to be picked up in 8 months. I'll experiment more then.

I do think a lot depends upon the individual boat not to mention the typical sailing conditions and the attitude of the skipper.
__________________
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2016, 05:11   #29
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: Hoyt Booms

Yeah Jim, I've had a similar good run with the same setup, with or without the main set. I haven't needed to sheet the main in so far, but I might give it a go sometime. Normally I sheet the leeward headsail of the end of the main boom.

I love the idea of being able to do the same with a hoyts boom or similar holding out the 100% jib to windward and a big jib top/code zero type sail to leeward. Very easy!


Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2016, 09:31   #30
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,037
Hoyt Booms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
FWIW, on our previous boat we would run the #3 and #1 as "twins", with only one pole, used on the windward sail. The leeward sail did not require poling out to stay full. If it was rolly we would reef the main to flatten it and sheet it hard amidships... like that it was an excellent roll damper, but did not add any real drive. (That was an IOR boat with a small main and big headsails). We did a lot of relaxed trade wind miles using that setup.



Jim

So long as you weren't DDW you don't need a second pole right? I have two sails now and two tracks in my foil, I only need another Halyard to make this work.
Even if there is almost no wind and I'm motoring I will put the main up and sheet it hard amidships or sometimes even sheet it to one side, the relative wind the boat makes from its motion will put some load on the main if sheeted to the side making it be a roll dampener and it keeps the sail filled that way. It seems to have no effect on speed, I theorize the drag from the sail is offset by the boat not rolling, or maybe since the speed is so low, it's not enough to even matter.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: Hoyt Jib Boom olivertwist Classifieds Archive 0 29-07-2011 18:27
Roller Furling Booms Redshift Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 15 20-07-2011 08:37
Pocket Booms ? Yachts66 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 12 27-02-2010 10:55
Booms, Halyards and Such... Yachts66 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 5 10-02-2010 22:10
Masts and booms cheap! Trecksail Construction, Maintenance & Refit 1 07-02-2005 17:17



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:49.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.