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Old 03-02-2007, 19:43   #31
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Hmm...

Feeling more confused than ever.

Seems there is a world of difference of opinions on splicing double braided line. In the "professional method" on Bob's site, he cuts the core out, then shoves the outer shell (sans its core) through a different section of core farther up the line (toward the bitter end). Ok, that makes no sense if you don't understand the method, but that's all he's doing. So.. he cuts the core, but the uses an uncut section of core to put the outer shell into a "chinese finger trap". He then shoves this chinese finger trap up inside the outer core, making a sort of double chinese finger trap that has the layers: outer shell, core, and outer shell shoved into the normal core.

Anyway, I hope we can all come up with some agreement here. Marlinspike stuff royally confuses me. Now... I'm only getting more lost.
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Old 03-02-2007, 22:51   #32
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G'day Wheels and the rest,
Looking at Bobs pictures it is a bit hard to tell if he cut the cover off before the bury, I suspect he did and would welcome Bob to say if he did or not. If he did I'll stick with what I said. If in fact he didn't I'll change my comments, just a little. It just looks as if he did.

When you get some of the softer braids and splice them up it is quite possible to shake them lose. This is not likely to happen in most cases on a boat but could if say on a headsail sheet or real floppy halyard when the sail is flogging away. Not a case of 'will' but more a case of 'could do'. This is why you see most stitched or whipped. The more times the splice is loaded the less likely it will fall out.

There is many many splice instructions out there on this interweb thing. Most are OK, some a prick and a lot real good. 99% of them get you to the same final product. Some are just explained a lot better than others. The book "The Marlinsplice Sailor' has a good simple description. Most rope makers have reasonable instructions as well. Sth Ocean had a set which would make you pull your hair out.

Tools for spliceing. Good ones make it real easy and poor ones will not help.

Just having done 1000's you learn a few tricks. 6 of my team splice (or are allowed to for release to the public, 2 in training ). When they were new I tuned each one to the splice I want them to do but have noticed each one does just a few little things a bit differant to the other after a while. This is far from being a bad thing and just what happens once you understand the process. All good.

Splicing is fun and well worth the effort to learn. Just start with a new rope and do the basic cover to core splice first. It is the most common used on boats and will give you a big insite into the basic process. From here you can work up to dyneema cores and the sexier stuff.
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Old 03-02-2007, 22:56   #33
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I just read ssullivans post who posted at the same time as me.
Are we all talking about the same splice of Bobs? Anyone got Bobs link again? Bob got 1 or more splices? Now I'm getting confused

Basically you cut core out when doing a polyester over polyester braid but cut cover when doing a dyneema/ vectran or similar.
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Old 04-02-2007, 00:01   #34
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How does stitch and serve compare?

How would making the eye by doubling the rope over (say 6") , then stitching through the rope with sailmakers thread followed by fully serving the doubled up part, compare with a proper eye splice?
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:01   #35
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It was a very ancient techneque used in the olden days. I have never seen it done with the new braids, but then that doesn't say much, me not having seen. I imagine it could be OK, but it would take a heck of a lot of stiching and wipping and not look as sexy as the real deal.
There is also the new technique of sowing the actuall line back in and out of itself. Good for emergency type stuff and now used a lot of boats like Americas cup. But I don't think it looks nice either.
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:46   #36
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The secrets of splicing double braid rope revealed ~ by Bob Norson
As originally printed in The Coastal Passage # 18, but with colour photos and amendments....
Goto: How to Eye Splice double braid rope
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:36   #37
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To be clear, I am talking about this method, not the one Gord linked to in his post:

Eye Splice, the professional method

This is what Bob calls the "professional method", which is why I chose it over the method he came up with. I figured that if some professional was doing it, maybe.... just maybe... it would hold my mainsheet?

This is the method on Bob's site that all my posts refer to, and that I have tried twice with my old dacron line.




Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay
The secrets of splicing double braid rope revealed ~ by Bob Norson
As originally printed in The Coastal Passage # 18, but with colour photos and amendments....
Goto: How to Eye Splice double braid rope
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Old 04-02-2007, 11:36   #38
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I think Bob's example (in Seans link above) it is an excellent method and very tidy.
The only difference I do is I don't take the cover back down into the inner core. I take the Core inside the core and cut the cover, and allow a few inches of cover to go inside the rope. If you tried Bob's technique of Spectra etc, you simply would not pull the thing back together. Infact you will struggle enough with just standard braid and I see why Sean would be struggling.
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Old 04-02-2007, 12:17   #39
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GMac and Rick: What are your thoughts on the method above, the link I put in just after Gord's post?

Wheels likes it, and me? Well... I'm just too cordage challenged to really understand if it's correct.

Common sense tells me that if I am cutting the core out and using the cover to hold the force that is put on the eye, then that part of the cover that is taking the load from the eye is taking the entire load of the line. (Although it is shared with the other side of the eye) Would anyone disagree with that?

So... maybe Wheel's way is better... cut the cover off and shove the core into the core. This, of course assumes that the core is what carries the load in double braided line.

Anyone know anything about that?
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Old 04-02-2007, 14:38   #40
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why take the chance?

Geez Sean,
Noted earlier in this thread is the problem of not making the splice with a balanced splice internally. If you want the line to reach breaking strength without breaking the splice first you need to have that splice balanced. In addition, like adding many turns around a cleat, there is no point to making any more than the minimum tucks necessary to do the job, in fact it could be detrimental.

Note the New England Ropes pdf instructions for double-braid dacron. PLease note the Brion Toss Yacht Riggers, Sailboat Rigging website and look at his splicing book which is even more clear than his thick Riggers Apprentice section. Note his DVD and splicing wands. Yes, this cost some money, yet after I have bought other splicing fids and his splicing wand (one size will do for your various halyard and sheet sizes without having to buy all of them) I just will not use any other method.

Samson instructions are not as clear as New England's, in my opinion. If you are going to use Sta-set or stay-set X use a known proper proven method like that used by Brion's crew of riggers (he has some really sharp people there in addition to himself when it comes to splicing) or New England Ropes methods. Stay set X is even easier yet that line is more expensive than Sta-set which, for cruisers, is also proven and the more expensive lower stretch lines may not be worth it for you.

Think about buying a reel of whatever halyard size that you need so that you can have sufficient material to replace all of them eventually and the price will be better overall if you do. You will be more inclined to practice with it and make various pendants for mooring etc. to practically eleminate chafe on your fairleads before connecing to nylon.
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Old 04-02-2007, 15:25   #41
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Thank you, Rick. I'm sorry... I was losing track of things on this thread and I am just barely starting out learning this stuff. It's just one of those things... like 8th grade biology... that escapes me.

I'm dumb as the proverbial post that you would tie a hitch to... right?

I'll check out the guides you mention and learn from those. Also, I'll check out the Brion Toss site.

Thanks, everyone.
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Old 05-02-2007, 00:01   #42
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Thanks for the links Gents.

OK this is what I see with the 2 splices. FYI - Splicing is part my (and 6 of my staff) job and I'm a Certified splicer for Samson and a few others. Not that being Certified means much to be honest as it was far from hard or tricky to get (one splice excepted) but does sound sort of cool

Braids 101 - There is (very) basically 2 common and one not so but becoming more common braid constructions out there most will ever see. There is a few more but quite specialised. Most, from the outside, look identical so it is very important you know what the materials used in any braids are before you decide which splice to use.

1, A cover/core braid - This is the common double braid most have on their boat. Usually either Polyester (dacron) over polyester or Nylon over Nylon and a bit of Polyester over Nylon mix. These braids take the load basically 50% each on the cover and core. The core is braided. Use a cover to core splice. Actually polyprop should be added to this bit as well, it is becoming more common.

2, A Core dependant braid - these are your dyneemas, Spectras, Vectrans, Zylons and etc. The load on these braids are taken all by the core and the cover is purely sun protection, to make it look nice and to help hold the damn thing in jambers as most new fibres are as slippery as. The core will be braided. Use a core to core splice.

3, A parallel cored braid - these are not so common but out there. When you get to the core you will find that it is not braided but a whole pile of baby size ropes all in a line i.e all parallel These braids tend to be lower stretch than the braided core versions. DON'T try to splice this as it is very hard to do and a specialist sort of thing. Obviously you can have a go but I would recommend you do a fair few before trusting life and limb on one.

Bobs Pro Splice - ( Eye Splice, the professional method )
I don't like it that much, would not use it and never ever comtemplate using it on a high-tech core dependant braid i.e dyneema or vectran. The only strength in the finished splice is what the cover holds x 2 less a smidgen, no more. Would be fine on a polyester (dacron) over polyester braid where 1/2 the ropes load is carried by the cover and the other by the core. The core is cut out, which is fine and basically what happens in most non-core dependant braids so the load is all on the cover.

Don't panic just yet as when you look at it each 'leg' of the splice carries 50% of the load and with the cover being 50% of the orginal rope you get 50% x 2 so you're back to full rope strength. You will lose some strength as you do with any splice. I'd say that splice could be worked to 80-85% of the un-spliced rope break load. NOT that you should be loading your ropes that high anyway, but we all know that anyway, don't we .

The reason I say I don't like it that much is I just think there are better, but similar, ways to do cover to core splices. This one would be easyier to do than most but you'll run the risk of cutting short and just having a big hollow on one side. This is more a cosmetic thing than structural. Being paid to do it we need to look pretty as well as work, damn it I am a bit surprised that this splice was copied from a 'professionals' one though.

Bobs own splice ( How to Eye Splice double braid rope )
As mentioned earlier I like it for Core dependant ropes, maybe with a few less tucks. I suppose you could use it for polyester/nylon and so on but I think there are better options for those. You will run the risk of the cover slipping out at it looking like doggy dodos.

Using this method on Dyneemas, spectras and the like it would be fine and you will suffer no strength loss more than other methods for these braid constructions i.e approx 15%.

I've looked hard at the photos and I still think Bob cut the cover out in between photos 2 and 3.

I'd taper the end of the core (approx 10 rope diameters) before burying and I'd definatly lose the tape at the last second before bury.

Three things to remember when splicing. One is that you are not that tuff, yes YOU . This means you will not be putting the pulling loads on the rope your boat will so when you tuck things in 10mm and it looks good in the shed it will (could) look cr*p when you winch a sail up and it pulls the splice 20mm. We see it often where the cover or core has been pulled out and makes it look yuck.
The second is that you will really start to learn braid splicing after you have done a few and used them. The first few you do will look good until you have used them a few times and a few flaws show up. Them you will start to realise the 'process' and how each bit effects another later down the track.
Thirdly IT IS often a complete bast**d to get that last bit of the splice buried. This is far from un-common and something we still battle with at times. That is a fact of rope splicing. The more you do the easier it gets but it is and always will be the problem bit so you just have to battle on sorry.

When learning try to find a nice bit of new rope that is floopy. This generally means there is more room between cover and core which will make the bury a lot easier. If you try with an old, used or new firm rope you will make life hard for yourself. Start with easy and work your way up, you will find it a lot easier and leave more hair on your head.

Does that make sense or am I writing in gobbledeegook again
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Old 05-02-2007, 00:10   #43
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That is an excellent thread Post Gmac. Thanks.
Any tips you could share on how to get that cover back over. It is the one thing I struggle with, or is that the norm. just lots of brawn and no brains...pulling the cover onver that is.
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Old 05-02-2007, 05:48   #44
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Thank you so much, Gmac! Very helpful. Also, very encouraging.

I got myself a nice big blister trying to get the cover back in to look tidy... good to know it's common for that step to be so difficult. Feel pretty good now too, since I was able to get it to within just a bit over an inch of being back together on very old line.

I would repeat exactly what Wheels said above.
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Old 05-02-2007, 13:12   #45
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Blisters Full points for the effort there ssullivanand a big 'been there, done that' from me as well.

Yes, rest easy gentlemen you are far from alone with your 'mongrol last bit'. It is very common and we get it often.

A couple of things which may help.
Leave a nice length when you tie a knot or fix the rope before splicing. Some say 3-4 ft, bu**er that go longer. A couple of metes is fine and you can't really have 'too much'. On a 12mm (1/2") I leave about 2-3 metres then tie a loop in which gets droped over a solid post for pulling against.

When tied off pull out and cut about 3-4 diametres of core out. Level ends up, milk most spare cover down towards knot. Splice away. This will give you a bit extra cover when you come to the last bit.

Get a 2-3 foot of rope, not to big a size (8-10mm) and can use cover or core cut out of a splice. Loop (reeve) that over the cover back by the knot on the rope your splicing. Trying to explain better here. Make the short bit a loop, just tie the ends togeather and put that around the rope being spliced and loop the short bit thru itself. This should pull tight on the spliced rope and you can use that to milk more cover towards the splice. Good for saving blisters If you pull it too tight you can't slide it up the other rope but you'll figure that out fast.

If still a tad short untie your knot and milk more cover off the rest of the rope.

When you have your splice buried as much as you can the whole splice is damn hard sometimes - bash with hammer. More give the splice area a good tapping with a hammer or similar. It just seems to free things up a bit. Clean hammer on clean flat surface, can't have dirty ropes. Tapping a few times a splice is not un-common. A bit of a Tap - pull tap - pull process.

Load the beast which a winch, turfer, block and tackle, loadbinder. Rope with knot fixed firmly to something. Loop or thimble being spliced to loadbinder to tree. Load the rope up, watch closly and you can see the splice trying to pull itself in. Load up nice and milk away.

Some tricks which may help. Can be used in combination and varied to suit.

The more you do the better you'll get and this will issue will diminish. It won't go away but you'll figure the tricks.

One point here - if you splice something up and the splice buries with real easy it also means it could come apart with easy. Stitch or whip or both. While splices don't normally pull out it is quite possible if shaken silly (headsail sheet flogging itself stupid) or if the wrong leg gets loaded un-evenly i.e the pull you pulled in can be pulled out. Stitching and/or whipping will hold load on the splice and keep it togeather in situations like this. If whipping load the splice up first so the whipping does not come apart later when the rope is loaded. If stitching don't use cotton, it rots.

Try some of those and see how you go. Worth the effort and you'll be very happy chappies when you can sit back with a cold beer and admire your
handy work.

When you get flash and 6 splices an hour give me a ring, I'll give you a job
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