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Old 30-12-2006, 23:17   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Although Bob's method looks to be great for not allowing any slip, Greatketch is correct in his analysis of the result not guaranteeing a balanced splice for equal line strength on each side of the eye. Such analysis does not mean that Bob's method is not as strong as a bowline, I'm sure it is, it merely does not guarantee that the result is maximally strong as well as slip resistant as the one sited in The Rigger's Apprentice, for example.
And have you guy's tested Bob's method, or are you just making this up as you go.

What happen's when the new book comes out that has a better way of doing a splice than in the "Riggers Aprentice"? .

Will that get shitcanned as well, or are new idea's OK as long as the come from the US?.

I remember getting the same reactions on another thread when I suggested PVC and DIESEL compatability, where the idea was bagged until I found a site saying they were in fact very compatable.

PVC and DIESEL compatability

Sometime's you seem pretty quick to **** on anyone else in the world.[ I don't mean you in particular Rick]

Dave
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Old 31-12-2006, 00:20   #17
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some good clear instructions from sampson ropes

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Old 31-12-2006, 04:05   #18
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Bob:

Rather than offended, you should be proud that your well written (& illustrated) article has generated a lively and informative discourse on splicing (and a little more).

I’m sorry that you took offense to my little jape. If you understand that there’s often an underlying truth behind every joke, then mine would have been a general reflection about Dave’s (Cat Man Do) observation regarding innovation, not targeted directly at your splicing method. I should have also noted that, while not every lateral thought turns out to be a gem, most valuable innovation is born of a re-examination of our cherished pre-conceptions. Herein lies the efficacy of “brainstorming”.

Bob’s concluding call to “...Tell me what you think!” (about the Splicing article) was not an invitation to a “brainstorming” session, wherein judgement & analysis are inconsistent with the free-thinking creative process.
In fact, Bob presented us with (2) evolved solutions, the results of his brainstorming and subsequent development.

Having invited comment, it seems a touch oversensitive to object to critical analysis at this point. I’ve read nothing offensive in (even the most) negative replies (which were in the minority), and urge you to accept alternative opinions, in the constructive manner I’m certain they were intended.

Respectfully,
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Old 31-12-2006, 11:13   #19
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Aloha Bob,
Thanks for your splice article. I've not tried it but it looks like something I can use and will if given the opportunity. I've watched it being done the Toss way and now I have two ways to choose.
When I do try it I will try to lift my 10 ton boat with it and see if it lasts any better than the "tried and true" rigger preferred method.
For the rest of the folks who have cast doubts I think they are just being very cautious of a new way of doing things. Can't blame them. Some folks are really very cautious and concerned with safety with systems that your life needs to depend on at sea. An eyesplice that is in standing rigging is pretty critical whereas one that holds the painter of your dink is something different.
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Old 02-01-2007, 07:37   #20
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Thanks for the article Bob,

I wonder what, if any, strength is lost in removing either the core or the cover. The method I've seen used before is much closer to the New England and Samson methods - although I can't remember the cover or core being "tapered". Mind you it was a long time ago and it was 6 inch Samson hawsers that were being made (a windlass was needed to "milk" them back together).
From the second method (pro) you suggested, I wonder if you left the core in place, rather than removing it in step 2, then in step 7 you thread it through 1/3 of the core then remove some strands from the cover, then thread it through the second 1/3 of the core then removed some more strands from the cover, then buried the remainder in the last 1/3 of the core; you'd essentially have the same taper as is suggested in the riggers' instructions, but perhaps easier and stronger.
I noticed you didn't note any lock-stitching in your instructions - the Samson instructions say it's to prevent 'no-load' opening from mishandling; obviously sailmaker's twine won't prevent the eye from opening under load, but I think the more important reason for the lock-stitch is to prevent the eye from closing or shrinking under load. There'd be nothing worse than finding you can't remove an eye from a cleat or bollard because it shrank.
I have some eyes to make up this winter - maybe I'll experiment a bit and let you know how it goes.

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Old 04-01-2007, 02:26   #21
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I would say Bobs way would be better on a core dependant rope i.e. dyneema, spectra etc than a normal polyester or nylon.

On a normal polyester double braid the load is taken by both the coover and the core. Simple really, there is roughly 50% of the fibres used in the cover and the rest in the core, they are the same fibres, they take half the load each. See it in testbed results often, load goes up then pop load (as the cover or core breaks) drops roughly 50% closely followed by another pop or just so much stretch the machine runs out of room to move.

When you splice cover/core dependent rope you need to make sure the load is spread. I think the normal way would be stronger. This is assuming he cut the cover off in between photo 2 and 3, it looks as if he has. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If that gets buried with the core the strength would be very similar. For a good splice work on the load being approx. 85% of the rope load and you should be all good.

In Bobs way the splice has the core well into the core so it would be good for the type of ropes which don't use the cover for strength. Done tidily like Bobs it would be nearly as strong as the rope itself, maybe a small smidgin (talking right up in the 90 v's 91% area where you do not play anyway) less than the normal way. I don't think you need quite as many tucks though.

Make sure you don't twist up any fibres, try and keep them running in the tidy lines they are. That goes for all ropes really. It is not that big a rope (12mm odd) before you can get into 1000's of tiny fibre soldiers all hand in hand to make a rope. Kill your tiny soldiers and the rope weakens.

I can't see how a good splice even the best could make the rope stronger. When you splice or tie a knot in it you distrub the lay of the rope hence the fibres it's made of. Strength is gained by those fibre being nicly laying the way they do so when you disturb that you lower the strength. A good splice minimises that disturbance to retain the best strength. A knot does quite a bit of damage hence knots lower the loads more than splices, work on 50%.

Nothing wrong with Bobs splice except it looks a bit slower to do than most, but then who rushes a craftsman, and maybe better suited to some rope constructions more than others. With so many fibres and constructions around these days we have also many differant splices. Most braids 'look' the same but can be very very differant. I'd lose the tape just be before the bury as well. Most glues usually go yucky and can get quite slippery if wet a bit, not a good thing inside a splice. Otherwise a nice job Bob.
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Old 04-01-2007, 08:44   #22
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Hi folks..

I'm new to the Forum, but I have been messing with ropes, lines and halyards for quite a few years. I have been following the recommendations for splicing double braid by Brian Toss, "Rigger's Apprentice" since his book first became available, and I've found them to be as good, easy and accurate as any others I've seen. Just a thought.

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Old 03-02-2007, 08:19   #23
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Ok... working on more skills. I'm also sewing and braiding impaired. I'm just learning marlinspike type skills and coming up short.

I remembered this post. I have a quesiton though. Looking at these 2 examples of how to splice a double braided line, I can't help but to wonder what, exactly, holds this in place? Is it merely the friction between the core and cover after you put one inside the other??

The methods I have been looking at online at New England Ropes have used various weaving techniques. Why are there no weaving steps in the methods from this post?

I'm not great with this type of thing, but does anyone know why the eye splices in this post stay together? I'm replacing my mainsheet and was looking to do the required eye splice myself. I was considering the "professional method" from this post. Which would be stronger? Bob's, or the "professional method?" Would either be adequate for a mainsheet or anchor rode?

Thanks...
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:16   #24
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Ugh!! The devil is *always* in the last step of anthing to do with marlinspike!

I did the "professinal method" just now, and ended up not able to get the last 3" back into the line. Time to try again. So does anyone know how this holds together? Is it via "Chinese finger trap method?"
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:22   #25
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I had somehow missed this thread till just recently. Bob your "lesson" looks great. There are many ways to do this and actually, there are many "right" ways to do this. There are two slight variances however, that do need to be followed for standard braids and the high strength lines like Spectra. Bob's method will work fine on the standard braids, but will not work on spectra. Nothing to do with strength, it is the ability to get the cover back over the line. Sean, any chance you are using one of those exotics??? If you are, you will never get the outer over the inner again. To do the spectra and other exotics, you have to taper that tail down. Every so many inches along, you need to cutaway a strand so as it tapers down nicely. That is the only way the cover can be put back over. No problem with strength. I have tested this method to breaking on a 4WD winch and the eye has never let go. Darn it. It always goes back several ft from the eye and I lose some good rope ;-)
Yes it is a "chinese finger" trap method.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:41   #26
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Ahhh!!! Wheels, you save me again! (Did I mention I am still grateful for the Tung oil discovery from way back when?)

Anyway, I have no idea what line this is. It's old, it's a bit worn. It's got an outer sheath and inner core just like the examples do. It's a section from my current mainsheet which is getting replaced. Original equipment.

Maybe I'll try the tapering this time (the 3rd time!) and see what happens.
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Old 03-02-2007, 13:38   #27
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eye splice in old dbl braid

Sean,
Making a proper eye splice in old used double-braid dacron is nigh on to impossible. I have talked to a rigger who claims that he has successfully done so yet with some difficulty. I've even tried washing and treating the old line with fabric softener and not been successful or satisfied with the result.

If you plan to use this still as a mainsheet or a halyard I recommend against making any eye splice other than the method outlined in Sailor's Apprentice (with the DVD as a supplemental visual which adds much to the understanding of just how easy it can be in NEW line). I've used other methods and don't feel that something as important as a halyard or mainsheet should have any quality less than the best.

If you try this with double-braid nylon it is very difficult to make the final bury and virtually impossible in used line.

I'm very particular about the safety of my lines and sails and over the years never blown out a sail or had a line/hardware failure at sea, even in a hurricane. I'm guessing that you are similar in this regard.
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Old 03-02-2007, 16:52   #28
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Wheels I dis-agree a lot with you here. A splice is about strength. Bobs way is not the best for standard i.e polyester over polyster, braids as the cover looks to have been cut away so you'll only have 1/2 the strength in the finished splice. Bobs way for a Dyneema, Vectran and similar core dependant ropes would be good. He has the core well tucked into the core which is what you need. Ropes like this don't rely on the cover for strength.

Don't do one splice over another just beceause it's easier to do, that is just silly. If you are going to take the time and effort to learn braid splicing why not do it correctly right from the get go. Before you start to splice any rope you must know what the materials are, it is very important and will dictate what splice is to be used. If you are only doing some practice and not going to actually use the rope in vengence you can use anything most of the time.

Spliceing older ropes is a complete pain in the botty if it can be done at all. Anyone trying to learn splices should be using a new rope or they will probably just end up pulling their hair out. Some old ropes can be done if you know what you're doing, are already bald and you have warned the cat to keep well away from your foot. Best way is to try it while wet, very wet.

Splices like this rely on friction basically. when under low load you can shake many and they will fall apart hence you see a bit of stitching/ whipping on some. Under load they sort of clamp on each other and all is good.

The key thing to remember when splicing braids it to make sure you do the appropriate splice for the appropriate type of braid. Most braid splices end up looking very similar but can be very very differant underneath where you can't see it. Use a dyneema for example and do a cover to core splice and you will end up with a weak splice. Use a normal polyester and a core to core splice and again you'll end up with a weak splice and a shocker to look at in a month or so. YOU MUST DO THE CORRECT SPLICE FOR THE ROPE BEING USED - VERY IMPORTANT IF YOU WANT TO RETAIN THE MAXIMUM STRENGTH.

The old can't get the last bit trick, very common. Right at the start when you're setting the rope up tie a knot 2mts back from the end, assuming about a 1/2" / 12mm rope. If bigger use more. Most directions show something similar but some say 2-3 ft, USE MORE if will not hurt and can make it a lot easier. Once you have this knot fixed pull about 3-4 rope diametres of the core out and cut it off, get the ends back togeather again, milk all the excess cover you can down to the knot end and splice away. This will give you a smidgen more cover at the end of the splice to milk over that last inch or so which most find the hardest bit. When you get to this point and still can't get it over un-tie your knot and try to milk more cover from the rope behind the knot. 99% of the time this will do the trick.

Not wanting to bang on about this but it is VERY VERY important you do the right splice for the rope you have. We see many, including a few so called professionals, doing the wrong one and thinking they still have good strength when in fact they could only have 35-40% of it left, this could be a mast wiating to fall down senario.

Samson has a nice list of splicing instructions for the various types of braids. Spend a few minutes checking them out and you will see that there is many variations of spilces for the many variations of rope materials.

Nothing wrong with Bobs splice for dyneema and the like but I would not suggest it for a normal polyester (dacron) over polyester braid.

One last thing - If you go to splice a double braid and pull the core out to find it is not so much 'braided' as a pile of parrall strands as a core, find a rigger. This is called, strangely, a parrall cored braid and splicing that is a hole differant game all togeather. These splices something you need better than average skills for. These braids are popping up more as they try to find performance inprovemenst withiut big cost increases. Parrall cored braids tend to have lower stretch properties.

Splicing can be fun and a real buzz when you get your first one finish correctly (like my 1st one in a 96mm (4" to those a bit behind the times) braid last week, Who's a happy puppy ) but there are traps so read instructions well until you're happy you can splice OK. You can start to tweak things once your at this place and understand better how they work.
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Old 03-02-2007, 17:22   #29
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Thank you for the replies, everyone. I think Rick's found the reason I can't do it. I think it's old, double braid dacron. Hey, I got within 2". Not bad!

But... alas, I want to do it right... whatever that means. I don't know yet, exactly.

I will consult some more reading material to try and scare up the correct way to do the eye splice on this double braided dacron.

I am trying to hone my skills on an old piece of the current mainsheet. I am buying a new line to do the real thing. I am trying to perfect the eye splice now, so I don't botch the real job. And yes, Rick... your suspicions are correct. I intend to do it right the first time. Too scared of it giving way in a blow if I don't have the eye splice perfect.

I also have to break a splice and re-splice on my anchor rode. I'm set up with 200' of chain out of one hawsepipe and 200' of nylon rode out of the other. They are connected so nothing can go anywhere, but so that theoretically, I can veer out close to 400' if required. Anyway, to end-over that anchor chain, I need to re-splice. I'll use a shackle this time though to avoid haing to re-splice. So yes... definitely motiviated to get the splicing right the first time.

Do you all think the sites that manufacte the rope (such as New England Ropes and Samson) are good places to learn? With all the little repairs, a new book isn't currently in the wife's idea of a budget.

Thanks.
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Old 03-02-2007, 19:09   #30
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I didn't see anything cut in Bob's pictures?
I was taught by a proffesional rigger some 20yrs back and have not had any problem yet. I was taught many techniques, each different and all quite adiquate for the job. I have never ever seen a splice able to be shaken out. That puzzles me with how it could be possible.
Sean, splicign older lines is a pain, but possible. As Gmac suggested, when you start, tie a knot a few yards back from the end to stop the cover slipping back. What I do is take the opposite end of the rope and tie it off onto something that won't let go. Like the car. Then go back down the line a quite a few yards and pull the cover towards the splice (use gloves) and you will usually get enough bulk to have it slip over. Soaking the tale in warm water will also help with some lines.
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