High friction when winching 16mm lines

[kudi73]

I have a couple of lines on my boat that are almost impossible to winch. All of these lines are 16mm, the biggest problem is the main halyard. What happens is that as soon as there is tension on the line the first two loops around the winch start rubbing at each other and create a lot of friction. The only way how to get the sail up is to winch two turns, release a bit, winch two turns, release, winch, release, etc. Alternatively someone from the crew can pull the line away from the first loop while winching. That works but needs two people to operate, not ideal.

The winch has a 70mm drum (Meissner 23ST) and is about 25 years old but seems to be in good condition, it still has good grip. I have similar problems with main and jib sheets, all of them are 16mm and the winches there are 75mm and stainless steel (Andersen 46ST).

Is that the lines? Cheap quality? Salty lines? Or is the winch simply too small for 16mm line? Am I doing something wrong when winching? Did anyone else have that problem and knows how to solve it? It's driving me crazy. Been searching the web but either no one else has that problem or I don't know how to ask...

[Suijin]

That line does sound somewhat oversized for the winch but I'm not sure how that would cause the issue that you're describing. A few questions:

- How many wraps, total, do you have on the winch when this occurs?
- What is the approximate vertical lead angle of the line to the winch (above or below)?
- what do you mean by "pull the line away from the first loop"? How is that accomplished when the line is under tension?

[UNCIVILIZED]

Have you sailed much before? As your explanation of the problem(s) is not written in a manner that enables one to well understand all of what may or may not be wrong. So it makes it tough to offer suggestions.
Sailing has it's own language, & it's the one that best allows the communications of these types of things, so that others can help you to sort them out.

That said, for the halyard issue, it sounds as if the angle of the line going to the winch is improperly angled, thus causing much unneeded friction. As to the other bits, odds are your winches are undersized, thus forcing you to do more work than if they were properly sized.

While 16mm sheets aren't small, neither are they particularly big, & shouldn't be part of the problem. And other than perhaps being a bit snug in the selftailing mechanism, they're by no means too big for the winches. The only way that something like that could be possible is if they were 30-40mm in diameter or larger.

Your best bet to sorting this is to grab an experienced (sailing) neighbor, & as his opinion.

[kudi73]

How many wraps, total, do you have on the winch when this occurs?

Seems not to matter, it gets worse the more wraps I have. If I have 3 or 4 wraps it's almost impossible to work.

What is the approximate vertical lead angle of the line to the winch (above or below)?

The line comes straight from above at almost 90C, see attached picture. The main halyard is the white/blue line.

what do you mean by "pull the line away from the first loop"? How is that accomplished when the line is under tension?

That means that we have 2 wraps around the winch and one crew is constantly pulling the line at an angle of about 20C away from the mast while the other crew member is winching. That way there is constantly enough friction on the winch and the two wraps are not rubbing that much. It only works with two wraps and as long as there's not too much tension otherwise the forces for the pulling crew are too high. But it's enough to get the main almost up.

[StuM]

Same answer as your question here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...et-192270.html ")

Your sheets/halyards are oversized for your winches/blocks and your winch is undersized.

It's hard to tell from your description, but it also sounds as thought the halyard lead angle to the winch is insufficient.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by kudi73

The line comes straight from above at almost 90C, see attached picture. The main halyard is the white/blue line.

That means that we have 2 wraps around the winch and one crew is constantly pulling the line at an angle of about 20C away from the mast while the other crew member is winching. That way there is constantly enough friction on the winch and the two wraps are not rubbing that much. It only works with two wraps and as long as there's not too much tension otherwise the forces for the pulling crew are too high. But it's enough to get the main almost up.

No picture attached, but it sounds as though the winch is mounted on your mast. Is that correct.

If you are pulling the line away from the mast to separate the two turns on the winch is sounds as though you are leading the halyard to the top side of the winch (away from the mast) and it exits the winch at the bottom (closest to the mast). If that is the way you are doing it - you are doing it wrong and it will cause major problems.. You always load a winch from the base to the top.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, kudi.

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by StuM

No picture attached, but it sounds as though the winch is mounted on your mast. Is that correct.

If you are pulling the line away from the mast to separate the two turns on the winch is sounds as though you are leading the halyard to the top side of the winch (away from the mast) and it exits the winch at the bottom (closest to the mast). If that is the way you are doing it - you are doing it wrong and it will cause major problems.. You always load a winch from the base to the top.

Arrgh... sorry about the attachment, now it should have worked. And sorry about all the confusion, I'm trying to explain as best as I can but English is not my first language, please have patience with me

Yes, correct, the winch is at the mast. And I am pretty sure that I do know how to use a winch correctly, I am not an old salt yet but I've been out there. The procedure I explained above with pulling the line away from the mast is not how I would do it usually, that's just a work-around: The winch is loaded with two wraps (of course in the correct direction) and then the line is pulled at an angle of about 20C (measured towards the boom) in order to avoid too much friction between the two wraps.

If I load the winch normally with 3 or 4 wraps the line on the winch generates so much friction "by itself, between the wraps" that it is impossible to winch.

Thanks for all the replies! And also thanks for being patient with my less than ideal English!

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Have you sailed much before? As your explanation of the problem(s) is not written in a manner that enables one to well understand all of what may or may not be wrong. So it makes it tough to offer suggestions.
Sailing has it's own language, & it's the one that best allows the communications of these types of things, so that others can help you to sort them out.

That said, for the halyard issue, it sounds as if the angle of the line going to the winch is improperly angled, thus causing much unneeded friction. As to the other bits, odds are your winches are undersized, thus forcing you to do more work than if they were properly sized.

While 16mm sheets aren't small, neither are they particularly big, & shouldn't be part of the problem. And other than perhaps being a bit snug in the selftailing mechanism, they're by no means too big for the winches. The only way that something like that could be possible is if they were 30-40mm in diameter or larger.

Your best bet to sorting this is to grab an experienced (sailing) neighbor, & as his opinion.

As I said in a previous post, English not being my first language and this being a rather technical problem, difficult for me to explain correctly. I will try to catch up on my English sailing lingo!

As for the sailing neighbor, that's actually what I am trying to do here I am currently in Indonesia, very limited community and infrastructure here.

Anyway, you would say that a 16mm line on a 70mm winch should be OK?

[Kalinka1]

Just a thought. but looking at the picture it seems to me the winch is loaded backwards. IE counter clockwise. Try loading it/them up clockwise and see if that helps

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Kalinka1

Just a thought. but looking at the picture it seems to me the winch is loaded backwards. IE counter clockwise. Try loading it/them up clockwise and see if that helps

In the picture the line is laying adjacent to the winch, but not loaded on it.

[Kalinka1]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

In the picture the line is laying adjacent to the winch, but not loaded on it.

Sure looks like there is a wrap or two on it to me and i even have my glasses on.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by kudi73

As I said in a previous post, English not being my first language and this being a rather technical problem, difficult for me to explain correctly. I will try to catch up on my English sailing lingo!

As for the sailing neighbor, that's actually what I am trying to do here I am currently in Indonesia, very limited community and infrastructure here.

Anyway, you would say that a 16mm line on a 70mm winch should be OK?

A. Your English is fine;

B. 16mm line (aka 5/8") is also fine;

c. Based on the photo, your winch and halyard arrangement with the cam-lock above is quite common;

d. Your winch is a self-tailer. On your halyard, raise the sail as far as you can comfortably by hand, lock the halyard in position with the cam-lock the halyard passes through; place three wraps of the halyard on the winch in a clockwise direction passing the tail of the third wrap over the stripping arm and locked in place with a wrap in the jam jaws on the top of the winch barrel with the tail hanging down over the forward side of the stripping arm and crank away. The first turn of the winch handle will tension the line and open the cam-lock on the mast which will allow you to pull the handle completely open to free the lead for the halyard (hopefully it's fair). As you crank the winch, the stripping arm will pull the wraps toward the top of the winch and strip them off in turn. Once the sail is at full hoist and the luff is tight, close the cam-lock and release the tension on the line between the cam-lock and the winch by pulling the line free of the locking jaws on the top of the winch but leave the line fed around the winch as you will need to take a strain (tension) the line to free the cam-lock when you wish to drop the sail

FWIW...

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by Kalinka1

Sure looks like there is a wrap or two on it to me and i even have my glasses on.

Sorry, the picture is a bit misleading, it's only to illustrate the situation. As Sailmonkey said, the line is not loaded in the picture.

As I wrote before, not the first time I am using a winch. This is not a problem of operating the winch incorrectly. It is a problem with either the line or winch/line combination.

I start to believe that the lines I use are of inferior quality, I bought them 3 years ago in Thailand. Maybe in combination with being slightly oversized for the winch and having been used for 3 years. I will certainly try to soak them for a day or two in sweet water and see if it gets a bit better. I would just replace them with good quality 14mm line but that is not possible right now because I cannot get any good lines here in Indonesia.

If anyone has another tip what I could try until I can replace them, very welcome :-)

Thanks everyone!

[robbinsfamily]

Can you pull it up by hand most of the way easy? If not your halyard may have slipped off the roller at the top of the mast.