High friction when winching 16mm lines

[waterman46]

To see if the problem is caused by the type or condition of the halyard, just bend on ( attach) a different line to your halyard just below the mast exit after raising the sail nearly full height. Lead this second line to your winch and see if you het the same problem.

BTW I would not let anyone use their hands on the line under load as you described doing. Prople have lost fingers in that situation when the line slipped or something broke. Use a piece of wood or a claw hammer, anything to keep your hands out of there.
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[savoir]

16 mm line is wayyyyyyy too thick for any brand of #23 winch. You would expect to see 16 mm being used on a #50 - 70 winch.

Try 10 mm size of dyneema cored line for your halyard. I don't know what products are sold in your area.

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by waterman46

To see if the problem is caused by the type or condition of the halyard, just bend on ( attach) a different line to your halyard just below the mast exit after raising the sail nearly full height. Lead this second line to your winch and see if you het the same problem.

That's one of those "Why didn't I think of this" things... Thanks!

Originally Posted by waterman46

BTW I would not let anyone use their hands on the line under load as you described doing. Prople have lost fingers in that situation when the line slipped or something broke. Use a piece of wood or a claw hammer, anything to keep your hands out of there.
.

I've been thinking about that comment quite a bit. When we do hoist the main in that way, the crew that is pulling the line has a meter or so distance from the winch, is wearing gloves and the load is actually not that high, one can easily hold it with one wrap around the winch. Overall I feel it's less dangerous than tacking where the loads are higher and the situation can be more hectic. And I would not do that with inexperienced crew in any but easy condition. Don't get me wrong, I do get your point and do appreciate being reminded. Usually it's me annoying the crew with my constant safety hints, I do take that very seriously, if anything would happen on my boat there would be no one else to blame but me.

[kudi73]

Originally Posted by savoir

16 mm line is wayyyyyyy too thick for any brand of #23 winch. You would expect to see 16 mm being used on a #50 - 70 winch.

That Meissner 23ST is apparently equivalent to a 40 Lewmar or Harken. But still undersized, for sure.

Originally Posted by savoir

Try 10 mm size of dyneema cored line for your halyard. I don't know what products are sold in your area.

Thanks for the tip. I will see what is available at what price once I get near a chandler. I do like thicker lines though, they are easier to handle without gloves. I think a good quality 12mm PE should do the job as well. Or something like a Gleistein DYNA LIGHT 12mm, might be a good compromise.

[William Mayes]

First of all Kudi, your English seems to quite good I must say as an English as a second language.
Next,
I just bought a 440 Cat and the previous owner changed the sails out and replaced the main halyard with a 16mm line. The mainsail is a real pain to hoist and to drop and I believe it is mainly due to the excessive frictions throughout the system. My Spinlock clutch is sized up to 16mm but it is a major pain to pull out when dropping the sail. Because I need 67 meters of line and expense (I need to change out other lines also), I was considering replacing the Spinlock clutch to reduce some friction. However, I still believe the 16mm probably causes more friction related points throughout the entire route it travels. I am convinced I have to replace the main halyard to a 14mm or 12mm line depending on quality of the new line.
For what it's worth, I hope this helps.
Kind Regards,
Bill on Lucy

[-bliss-]

Hey Kudi73.
Even though the size of your Meissner 23 winches might be equivalent to lewmar 40, the 16mm line is still oversized, not only for the winches, but also for the sheave in the top of the mast. The track in that sheave might not be wide enough to fit the line, and the sheave diameter probably isn´t big enough to accommodate such a thick (i. e. stiff) line. In addition, it adds friction around the block on top of your sail.
I would climb the mast to inspect the sheave.. Even though you reduce the load roughly 50% with the 2:1 system, these sheaves for sure take a beating, especially on multihulls (and stiff monos sailed hard). If the sheave is worn or broken, you might have an identical practically unused sheave (topping lift) sitting right next to it?

Since you have a 2:1 system, the 16mm line is just not needed, regardless of winch size. I understand the logistical challenges of replacing the halyard, but I´ll suggest you swap the line whenever possible. (On my 50 ft mono I now use 2:1 10mm double braided dyneema for the main halyard, operated by a Lewmar 43 st winch. Seems ideal. Way less creep, flex and friction than the 14mm polyester it replaced.) I´m not familiar with the measurements of your cat, but naturally is has a totally different righting moment than a mono, so one size bigger to compensate for the stiffer boat, i.e. a 12mm or ½” double braided dyneema might be the right choice for this application.

It´s really all about reducing friction, so I would clean the winches if it hasn’t been done in a couple of years. It´s not rocket science. If you are unfamiliar with the task, bring a friend, take photos of every step during disassembly, so you have a reference during assembly. Make sure to have a bucket or something similar under the winch, so small screws, springs etc don’t disappear. If possible, order a service kit, as you might find a broken spring or two in there.. Clean all parts in diesel (a few pairs of dispensable gloves are your best friends during this process), let all parts dry on yesterdays paper for a while, then add a very thin layer of grease to all gears and bearings. Your worn out toothbrush is the perfect tool, as it will help you access all cavities. A very thin layer is all it takes. (Don’t overdo this. Too much grease will attract salt and dirt, which adds friction and wear to all moving parts..) Make sure not to use grease for your pawls! (The pawls are the small spring loaded parts that lock the gears, they are also they are the ones making the clicking sound). The pawls and springs require thin oil. Certainly doesn’t have to be something fancy bought in a marine store. A drop of automatic transmission fluid works perfectly, and should be available pretty much everywhere. (Grease will make the pawls stick to the gears, possibly causing malfunction, so it´s imperative to use oil here.)

Also: Buy a can of teflon/ PTFE spray. It´s perfect for lubricating the track and cars for your main sail. Works for blocks and sheaves as well. (Silicone spray also does the trick in dry climates, but sadly washes off as soon as it starts raining..) I always bring a can of Teflon when climbing a mast. All tracks, cars and blocks seem to appreciate the effort, boat owners too, at least the next time they raise the main.

No reason to be frustrated. I see a thinner dyneema halyard in your future. I´m pretty sure it will make you a happy cruiser once again!

Good luck!
-kjetil-

PS: My apologies to all other contributors to this thread. I didn’t have the time to read the other replies. I´m sure the OP already has received good advice from all the competent cruisers here. I´m just stating my first thought after reading the first few post.

[Jim Cate]

There have been some good and practical bits of advise given above... but I'm not sure that I understand the concept of the wraps on the drum having excess friction between the wraps. The wraps don't move relative to each other while winching. They (at least in theory) don't move with respect to each other or to the drum... except to slide upward on the drum as the line is pulled in.

So, I'm left with the suspicion that the problem lies elsewhere, and agree that the line is too large for the application. I too suggest use of at least a spectra core double braid, and that 10 mm would do just fine. That's what we use on our ~ 52 sq m main, and that's with a 1:1 halyard. I find that adequate to hoist bare handed... haven't worn gloves for decades... YMMV.

Jim

[jamhass]

You might try isolating the problem a bit more. Try this if you can.

Pull enough halyard out so you can winch the halyard "unloaded". Have your partner manually load the halyard as you winch it in.

If the problem goes away, your issue is not the winch, but something up the mast, such as a bad sheave, bad cam cleat, etc etc.

Troubleshooting usually works best through isolating the potential problems one by one.

[Tillsbury]

Agree that 16mm is way oversized for a 23st, and indeed for a 44ft boat for anything but mooring lines. Go down to a maximum of 12mm preferably 10mm dyneema for a halyard.

[Sailmonkey]

16mm is insanely large!! Downsize the lines significantly and your life will be grand.

[kudi73]

A late thanks to everyone for your input!


Downsizing the halyard to a decent 12mm line finally resolved the issue. Not only is it much easier to winch now but can be pulled much higher by hand as there is much less friction in the mast fittings as well.


It seems so simple in retrospect... I guess what confused me is that when the halyard was new it was relatively easy to winch and it only got worse with time and exposure. That 16mm line is much too big for that small winch but that only started to show once the line hardened with age and exposure.



And one more lesson learned... When you climb up the mast in order to change a 16mm halyard of a 70m2 sail that's been up there for a couple of years, bring a knife. Or you going to climb the mast twice



Thanks again all!