Hank on vs. furler for Solent stay

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW:

That worked well, until one day when the Highfield opened up at sea and the stay detached from the deck. A very awkward (and scary) condition that eventually lead to the destruction of both sail and furler. DAMN! When we replaced the lot, we discarded the Highfield (imagine that!) and resigned ourselves to rolling up the genoa every time we tacked or gybed. This has lead to use of the Solent just about any time we know we will be throwing frequent tacks. In winds of >15 or so apparent, no terrible performance loss, but in light airs it's kinda slow.


Jim

Would like to know how the lever got detached. I use one and to release tension would require lifting a steel ring up about a foot to clear the lever. Once tension releases the lever is still attached to the deck fitting even if the stay is now slack a little. . The problem could be that the resulting shaking might cause the big pin securing the lever to the deck, to shake out since it is held in place only by a ball detent mechanism. I think I will switch that to something mre foolproof, but it still must be doable without tools.

Doug

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks; very interesting.

A hank-on sail (or a sail put up in a non-furling foil) might still make sense on something like a Solent stay, or for a staysail -- just to reduce the windage when the sail is not being used.

I have slowly come around to the realization that one of our biggest mistakes is trying to make a limited sail plan do too much. I love the cutter rig more and more with every passing year, and more and more I start to sail on either main or jib alone without the other, to get just the right amount of sail up without reefing anything. I even start to think that a ketch rig could be really great, if the boat were big enough and the masts could be far enough apart. Consciousness evolves!

Dockhead: having sailed both, I think a schooner is far superior to a ketch. And with the materials available today, I think schooners could make a real comeback. You can pack a lot more SA into a schooner than a ketch, I believe.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Before deciding on where to attach the stay, & picking sail sizes, you first need to know how best your boat shifts gears. Meaning does she like to be depowered by first taking reefs, & if so, how large? And when going down to smaller jibs, how much reduction needs to be made with each change so that she sails well in the next higher wind range?
As if you go about setting up your rig & sails without knowing this in advance, then you may wind up doing some parts of it a couple of times. Which can hurt the wallet, as well as time better spent enjoying the boat vs. doing sail & rig tuning.

On some boats you can do something like:
- Main with 3 reefs
- Trysail
- Code 0
- 120% Genoa
- 120% Genoa rolled up to 100%
- Solent @ 75% of foretriangle area
- Storm jibs/staysails flown from the Solent Stay, or a seperate Staysail Stay.
- Downwind sails as best suit your boat & saiing style. Though probably an A3.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Benz

Dockhead: having sailed both, I think a schooner is far superior to a ketch. And with the materials available today, I think schooners could make a real comeback. You can pack a lot more SA into a schooner than a ketch, I believe.

Ha, ha. Schooner vs Ketch is some tread drift. But a fascinating question. I'm starting a new thread.

[jpendoley]

To return to and expand on the topic, what about jib tracks port and starboard for the Solent whether hanked on or furled, those would likely be a required modification, true?
I was out in 25-30 mph winds recently and found my Pearson 365 was getting squirrelly with the 135 furled to a 100# Jib and the furling main reduced. Too much helm and I don't think it was coming from the hanky sized main.
I already have the hound installed for a silent, would need a.robust deck attachment mechanism, but am puzzled how to judge where to place jib tracks. Any advice appreciated.
Jim

[jls095]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

To return to and expand on the topic, what about jib tracks port and starboard for the Solent whether hanked on or furled, those would likely be a required modification, true?
I was out in 25-30 mph winds recently and found my Pearson 365 was getting squirrelly with the 135 furled to a 100# Jib and the furling main reduced. Too much helm and I don't think it was coming from the hanky sized main.
I already have the hound installed for a silent, would need a.robust deck attachment mechanism, but am puzzled how to judge where to place jib tracks. Any advice appreciated.
Jim

This is my next step. My plan is to install the stay then work with a sailmaker on the cut of the jib. That will dicate where it should be sheeted from. I'd prefer to avoid laying down an inner track and use pad eyes or a barber hauler to sheet it inward before going back to the genoa track.

[barnakiel]

There are detachable furlers too. The solent can be furled away and dropped. The same hardware can be used to hoist a blade or storm sail then.

b.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

To return to and expand on the topic, what about jib tracks port and starboard for the Solent whether hanked on or furled, those would likely be a required modification, true?
I was out in 25-30 mph winds recently and found my Pearson 365 was getting squirrelly with the 135 furled to a 100# Jib and the furling main reduced. Too much helm and I don't think it was coming from the hanky sized main.
I already have the hound installed for a silent, would need a.robust deck attachment mechanism, but am puzzled how to judge where to place jib tracks. Any advice appreciated.
Jim

Correctly positioned sheet leads are crucial to decent sail trim, and you are right -- a different sail usually needs different sheet leads.

I faced this issue when I added a 95% blade jib to my sail inventory. The sheet leads for the standard 120% yankee were completely unsuitable -- too far outboard, and too far aft.

I considered adding a new pair of tracks, but this would have been very expensive on my boat, and would not have given me any control over the inboard-outboard position of the leads.

I ended up putting in "floating sheet leads", AKA "twings", like on a race boat. Basically, you use low friction rings, dyneema strops, and control lines to lower and raise, and move inboard and outboard, the large low friction ring which you run the sheet through. It works extremely well, and was much cheaper than normal tracks, to boot.

One other thing I can say -- I never fully appreciated it, despite a lifetime of barber hauling headsails, but headsails are EXQUISITELY sensitive to the inboard-outboard position of the clew. This aspect of my twing system turned out to be particularly rewarding.


I have a lot of experience with a sloop-rigged P365, and my experience was that the standard 135 genoa is a pig, good for almost nothing except reaching. Another thing you might consider is just ditching the genoa and using a jib on the same furler. You might be surprised at how much more versatile it is, and how little you miss the genoa.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

There are detachable furlers too. The solent can be furled away and dropped. The same hardware can be used to hoist a blade or storm sail then.

b.

With this, are you referring to something akin to a Trinquette, with a multi part purchase at the tack, & or a 2:1 halyard? So that the sail is hoisted in a manner akin to a Code 0 with it's highly tensioned luff, but no stay used.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

To return to and expand on the topic, what about jib tracks port and starboard for the Solent whether hanked on or furled, those would likely be a required modification, true?
I was out in 25-30 mph winds recently and found my Pearson 365 was getting squirrelly with the 135 furled to a 100# Jib and the furling main reduced. Too much helm and I don't think it was coming from the hanky sized main.
I already have the hound installed for a silent, would need a.robust deck attachment mechanism, but am puzzled how to judge where to place jib tracks. Any advice appreciated.
Jim

One way to adjust for the tracks you already have is to use a pendent on the tack of the sail. Raise it up or down so you can find a spot where your tracks work. Then finalize the pendent length.... or of course if you are having a sail made you can change the clew design height also.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

With this, are you referring to something akin to a Trinquette, with a multi part purchase at the tack, & or a 2:1 halyard? So that the sail is hoisted in a manner akin to a Code 0 with it's highly tensioned luff, but no stay used.

Yes. A pretty common solution these days.

E.g. (generic, not specific).
Structural furler_fiber

Unfurl, use, furl, drop (or not).

When dropped, remove the sail, reuse the hardware, hoist the other sail, unfurl, sail on.

Cheers,
b.

[jpendoley]

Dockhead,
Good that you can corroborate my experience on my sloop rigged 365-and I have in mast furling to make matters worse-it is a pig to windward and that's the reason in need a solent. Also need a storm jib. Don't feel I can dispense with the 135 genoa because, well it's a pig in anything less than 10 knots of breeze. I need to just be able to reduce meaningfully in breezes above 25. A silent would seem to be a good solution and maybe a new set of tracks or an in hauler

[barnakiel]

Another nice way to use something not 100% orthodox:

Facnor furler — SV Taniwha

I am not a Facnor dealer, just a fan.

Cheers,
b.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by jpendoley

To return to and expand on the topic, what about jib tracks port and starboard for the Solent whether hanked on or furled, those would likely be a required modification, true?
I was out in 25-30 mph winds recently and found my Pearson 365 was getting squirrelly with the 135 furled to a 100# Jib and the furling main reduced. Too much helm and I don't think it was coming from the hanky sized main.
I already have the hound installed for a silent, would need a.robust deck attachment mechanism, but am puzzled how to judge where to place jib tracks. Any advice appreciated.
Jim

Most likely, the problem was coming from the aerodynamic shape of your jib being horrific. In that it more resembled a "D-cup" than a proper airfoil. And the sail's being overly deep in terms of draft was causing so much drag & leeway that she was handling like a pig.
This is exceedingly the case when the boat heels over far enough so that the keel is producing markedly reduced lift, & even more so if you're heeled over/bow down sufficiently so that the rudder is losing it's grip on the water.

For the deck fitting for the Solent stay, & the tack fitting for same, it's often best to have a way to connect things to the stem, belowdecks, in line with the load on the stay. Though at times one can sufficiently beef up a forward bulkhead to handle the load.
Likely you know this, though not everyone else reading the thread will. Thus it's mention.

On jib tracks, the math for figuriing out their placement isn't overly complex. Most rigging, & sail tuning texts contain the basics of it. And it's simple geometry. With the catch being to have them inboard enough that you make good progress to windward, without having excessive leeway. Which, how close to the boat's centerline one wants to sheet things varies due to things like sea state, & anything else which might cause you to make excessive leeway with the sheets set in the right location for flatter seas.

This is why on older boats it's common to have 2 sets of jib tracks, parallel to one another. Along with the ability to sheet things to the toerail as well. Back in the 80's & 90's it was quite common to have 2 sheets on the jib once you settled onto a tack. One of them led to the inboard track, & the other to the outboard track or toe rail. And then the position of the clew was tuned by using both to bear the sheeting load. Thus moving the clew more inboard or outward depending on which sheet bore more of the load. And you'll even see 3 sets of tracks up by the shrouds for the #3 on some boats, so that the lead positon could be optimized for conditions.

Now with floating jib leads like Dockhead's, & twings or barberhaulers, it's possible to dispense with a lot of this hardware. Particularly when you don't ever use overlapping jibs. And as stated by others, you can tune where the sail sheets to in terms of fore & aft positon, by adjusting it's tack height, along with how it's cut in terms of clew height & overall shape.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yes. A pretty common solution these days.

E.g. (generic, not specific).
Structural furler_fiber

Unfurl, use, furl, drop (or not).

When dropped, remove the sail, reuse the hardware, hoist the other sail, unfurl, sail on.

Cheers,
b.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Another nice way to use something not 100% orthodox:

Facnor furler — SV Taniwha

I am not a Facnor dealer, just a fan.

Cheers,
b.

These units (structural furlers) are meant to be hoisted with the sail in place on them, tensioned similar to a headstay or other piece of standing rigging, & left up while at sea. Unless something is being lost in translation here?

They were developed as a way for short handers/single handers to have multiple headsails up & continually at the ready. While saving a good bit of weight aloft when compared to a foil based furler with a wire or rod stay inside of it (the conventional furler).

What I was saying that's possible, though far from ideal, is to rig a headsail like a Racing Code 0, in that it has an anti-torsion cable built into the sail. And the halyard, or perhaps the tack fitting has 2:1 or 3:1 purchase. Thus giving you a fairly tight luff. But not one which is the equal of a sail hoisted on a stay or foil. So with such a sail you lose some pointing ability, even when it's cut flatter to compensate for the lack of a true headstay.

To the best of my knowledge, this is also the case with sails using structural furlers. Such setups aren't truly fully optimized for upwind work. At least as compared to sails hoisted on a dedicated stay. Non?
Though I'd reckon that the boats which they're typically used on obtain better VMG by footing off a few degrees, as necessitated by these sails/structural furlers, as opposed to pointing higher but going slower with conventional stay based sails.

EDIT: This would be a good one to run by Andy Evans, or Stumble. And one other consideration for using some of these more advanced rigging systems, is how much vertical (compression) loading one's putting on the mast tube, due to having several very highly loaded stays/furlers connected to it. Particularly without using halyard locks. As having 3-4 highly loaded "headstays" on a rig designed for 1 can do "funny" things to a spar.

This is especially true if runners, & or swept spreaders aren't used to balance out such fore & aft loads. Since most boats using structural furlers, such as Class 40, & OPEN class boats have very powerful runners & check stays. Particularly as most of them have no fixed backstay. Or in the case of Anasazi Girl, she has a rotating wing spar. Which has huge amounts of built in resistance to fore & aft loads.