Hank-on Sails vs Furler ?

[clockwork orange]

[QUOTE=Dockhead;414282]Well, my point was that your method of carrying the main headsail[s] does not change your predicament with a storm sail. If you're not balanced with a deeply-reefed roller furling headsail, you will not be balanced with a hanked-on storm job, hanked on in the same place. That problem will lead you to find a different position for the luff of your storm jib, that is, an inner forestay of some kind.

This is not quite true,when you deeply reef down with a furler you end up with a sail that is too full and powerful to be an effective storm sail which is exactly the opposite of what you want, a hank on storm sail is going to be flatter and less powerful which is going to have less effect on your balance.
Steve.

[clockwork orange]

Shane, years ago there was a roller furler called a mariner roller stay which allowed you to use hank on sails with full furling. Steve and Linda Dashew used it on their first circumnavigation on a Columbia 50 and he speaks highly of it in his Cruising encyclopedia book.
Steve.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by bewitched

True, but I don't think that any sailmaker, or experienced sailor, would advise you to use a 150% genoa as a storm sail.

Neither do I and that was not really the point. Regardless, if I did have a furled 150% Genoa on my boat I would be glad I have a stay behind it to fly the storm sail on when things got rough. If you only have the one furled lightweight sail you really don’t get this option and are forced to expose the lightweight fabric to adverse conditions?

Otherwise I agree with the wear and tear with the exception that a furled sail is permanently exposed to the weather/sunlight/heat?

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Shane, years ago there was a roller furler called a mariner roller stay which allowed you to use hank on sails with full furling.., Steve.

Sounds like a good idea. Personally, I am just glad that like how I commented above, if I did install a furler then I have a stay behind it to fly storm sails etc on. Maybe this is another reasonable combination although I will concede that the stay causes wear to the furthest headsail when tacking etc.

Like anything, I suppose a different combination/methods will suit individual needs and even appearances (my boat being traditional). Still, it is nice to brainstorm all the different options. Likewise, thanks for the various posts.

[bewitched]

Originally Posted by SurferShane

If you only have the one furled lightweight sail you really don’t get this option and are forced to expose the lightweight fabric to adverse conditions?

Very true - I added an inner forestay and checkstays to my rig for this very reason.

Originally Posted by SurferShane

I agree with the wear and tear with the exception that a furled sail is permanently exposed to the weather/sunlight/heat?

To a certain extent - I haven't notice heat being a problem (with dacron), sunlight (UV damage) is overcome with a sacrificial UV strip. General rain, wind etc will degrade the sail over time for sure. I'd hazard a guess that properly cared for hank ons would last longer on a boat sailed every 2nd weekend or so, rollers would last longer on a boat under constant use (like on an extended cruise)

[bewitched]

A solution for having the right sail at the right time and furlers could be:
Genoa on a fwd furling
Jib on a furling immediately behind
Staysail / Stormsail on a furling somehere behind that

There are a fair number of boats with this configuration around, especially in the 45ft+ range. The only downside I see is the need to roll the genoa each time you tack - but I guess if you plan on tacking much, you use the jib. It would be interesting to get opinions from anyone who has this set-up

[NoahH28Ketch]

Originally Posted by SurferShane

I have a steel H 28 Ketch with a staysail and have decided to go against the modern trend for furlers and am sticking with a number of hank-on headsails. The way I look at it is that the sails on the boat are fairly small and easy to handle, so why not have a few different specific sails for different conditions?

I also own a Steel H28 Ketch, (the only other one in Australia as far as we both can tell!) and have a 145% Genoa on a furler.

My arguments for the furler are as follows.

Re: quote above: why not have a few different specific sails for different conditions?

Because a single sail can do what the few "specific" sails for different conditions can for cruising conditions, if you were racing and wanted to squeeze every ounce of "performance" and "efficiency" from your sails, this point would be more than valid. the H28 is a Full Keel cruising boat that will never go upwind as well or go as fast as a fin keeled yacht under any point of sail, no matter how efficient the sails are.

My furler when furled right in to the 3rd "reefing point" bags up and is an inefficient shape, and probably costs me a few degrees in pointing angle upwind in a blow. However I can furl it all in in less than 5 seconds from the safety and comfort of the cockpit, start my engine and motor into a heavy swell if need be, and if someone wants to argue a hanked on sail would be better, perhaps they'd like to experience how much leeway a full keel on a H28 has when bashing into 4.5 metre seas! A few degrees to windward is not going to make the difference between wanting to have a hanked on sail over my furled genoa in my opinion. The convenience, safety, and ease of deployment and furling away is just too good. I certainly do not ever drop any speed by having it, just degrees to windward, which in a H28 is crap regardless!

Originally Posted by SurferShane

“I use hank on jib for easy drop and replacing of sail. A strong 6 ounce jib is good for off shore and you can drop and replace with a light air sail. Say a 4 ounce jib for light air will get you to windward.” by wsvoboda

Again, in light air, getting to windward is fraught with leeway in the H28
My Heavy Genoa will actually hold its shape really well in light air because it is such a heavy dacron it keeps its shape and doesn't move much, much the same as your socks stay in the shape of your foot once you've been at sea!

I'd like a light large sail for light wind, and actually had one designed up ready as a large asymetric/ MPS, with just 3 points of attachment, clip it to the bowsprit at the tack, Spin. halyard to the head, and take the clew aft to the genoa sheet track wherever it suits. It was designed to be used from a beam reach to a run. if this is not going to work, then the wind is going to be strong enough to break out the genoa anyway!

Originally Posted by SurferShane

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]“Hank on genoa's outperform roller furling genoa's. I would immediately specify at least a batten at the head of the genoa or even a wishbone at the clew!!

Again, is it "performance" you're after? the H28 is not much of a "performance" boat! Its designed for safe, seaworthy, long and short distance cruising. Slow and steady!

Originally Posted by SurferShane

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Also, when it's time to reef and you take down the genoa and hoist a jib, the difference with a half-furled (roller) genoa becomes silly and you are way better off.
Don't forget that you can add a reef to the foot of a hank-on foresail too!” by s/v Jedi

Again "the difference... becomes silly" meaning the difference in performance. No argument from me, but with the H28 hull shape, I really don't think the gap in performance is worth the trouble! I don't think the difference would warrant having one for the benefits of a furler.

Originally Posted by SurferShane

These comments pretty much summarise the reason why I have decided to spare the expense of a furled. It also seems that furlers can fail?

Expense is around $1400 for the furler I use, complete. My 145% Genoa was $1900 brand new. What will it cost to have 3 sails made? about that I would think.

Of Course Furlers can fail. how many have you heard of lately? I've been involved in sailing for many years, and havn't personally heard any horror stories. I've had the furling line fall off the drum and wrap round the forestay a few times, requiring a trip to the bow, but that was because I forgot to cleat it off!

The furler I use is called a reefurl, simple, no moving parts, cheap, and reliable. Just be sure to crack the sheet and take the load off the sail before reefing it, you don't need a winch! If you need the winch to furl, you're loading up the forestay and you'll do damage, thats how people have problems I'm guessing, because they don't understand the forces involved and how to minimise them to avoid damage and wear.

Of course, regular maintenance and checking of swages/ Forestay cable condition will need to be done, but once again, a small price to pay in time and attention.

Originally Posted by SurferShane

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I note, I am intending using my H 28 as a pocket offshore cruiser.

Cruiser, not racer!

Love the Boat mate, and I love the traditional look of hanked on sails, and admire your enthusiasm for being happy to change sails when required.

When you're tired and grumpy because you've been bashing to windward for 20 hours on your own and need to take a sail down in 4.5 metre seas and leave the helm for the foredeck in the rain with 35 knots of wind to reduce sail... maybe you'll reconsider!

I have lots of pics of the boat with sail in/out in heavy weather and fine so you can see how it goes, feel free to fly over and take Noah out mate, try it for yourself! you won't get any better idea than that! an identical boat, with a furler!

Whats a plane ticket?

Cheers

[s/v Jedi]

When I think of all the furler control lines my knees go weak....

Anyway, the 3rd furler for staysail/stormsail shouldn't be there because a stormjib should not go on a furler.

cheers,
Nick.

[bewitched]

Anyway, the 3rd furler for staysail/stormsail shouldn't be there because a stormjib should not go on a furler.

I've heard this theory, but I've never quite heard a convincing argument to support it.

I've heard:

1 - It could rip out of the foil. This is true, but it is also true of all boats that have a foils instead of hanks, and why they should also be tied on. So if it's OK for a sail thats attached to the headstay with a foil, why isn't it OK for a foil that's part of a furling system? The added benefit of a roller is that you can put a roll or two in the sail - then you have very little force acting on the foil at all.

which leads quite nicely to the 2nd oft quoted theory:

2 - the furling line could snap - which it could - but the same argument goes for any other line attached to a storm jib right? The halyard could snap. If the halyard snaps, you have no replacement (on most boats) and so no storm jib. If the furler snaps, you still have your storm jib and you have more chance of replacing the furler line than the halyard.

3. The furling system isn't designed to take such loads - then fit one that is.

These are the arguements I've heard and they don't convince me. To my mind the very fact that you can rig the storm jib properly and in safety before you leave the dock, rather than on a pitching foredeck has a distinct safety benefit. The fact that you don't have to leave the cockpit to deploy the storm jib is another huge plus for me.

But if there really is a very good reason why a storm sail should not be put on a furler I would genuinely like to know what it is and I'll eat humble pie.

[s/v Jedi]

When a boat has genoas and jibs in a foil, that doesn't mean the stormjib goes in there too.... The forces during a storm are much bigger and that is the reason that the foil won't do during those conditions but is fine for the other sails.
Also, you do not want to put some rolls on the furler with a storm jib because that will only create more drag plus it only ensures that the furling line will break.

A storm jib on a furler would need a halyard just like any other storm jib so the chance of that breaking is equal. The furling line wouldn't break because there is no tension on it when the jib is deployed.

There is no furling system for storm sails. If you would try to unfurl a storm jib during a storm, it will probably rip the foil sections apart, tearing the jib up in a second. Also, how would you reef it? furling it a bit? storm jibs can have reef points (two tacks and two clews)

About not having to go forward: it is good to go forward because it will allow you to check if everything is right there. Also, you should know that a storm is approaching which allows you to set the storm jib in advance or at least prepare it for hoisting.

It should be set on an inner stay or cutter stay or baby stay of course, not on the head stay.

But nobody is stopping you from installing an expensive furler system for you stormjib. I actually never had to set my storm jib so I'm glad to have saved me the expense ;-)

cheers,
Nick.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

Dockhead, I realized that I may need a babystay to keep a functional jib when the weather cooks up. I do believe I can get that effect with a different hanked on sail. My compac is so small, I did not think there would be much of a place for a baby stay.
On the other hand, maybe a foam luff might help. I am currently repairing my sails. Will have to look into that.
But hanked on are looking better and better. Why do you have to go on deck to take a sail down? None of you guys like using a jib downhaul?

[QUOTE=clockwork orange;414390]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, my point was that your method of carrying the main headsail[s] does not change your predicament with a storm sail. If you're not balanced with a deeply-reefed roller furling headsail, you will not be balanced with a hanked-on storm job, hanked on in the same place. That problem will lead you to find a different position for the luff of your storm jib, that is, an inner forestay of some kind.

This is not quite true,when you deeply reef down with a furler you end up with a sail that is too full and powerful to be an effective storm sail which is exactly the opposite of what you want, a hank on storm sail is going to be flatter and less powerful which is going to have less effect on your balance.
Steve.

Yes, you are correct. I retract that remark. But you can easily hank on a true storm sail over a roller-furled genoa. Something like the "Gale Sail"; see ATN Gail Sail

This is a good solution if your boat balances ok, but otherwise you will need the inner forestay.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bewitched

A solution for having the right sail at the right time and furlers could be:
Genoa on a fwd furling
Jib on a furling immediately behind
Staysail / Stormsail on a furling somehere behind that

There are a fair number of boats with this configuration around, especially in the 45ft+ range. The only downside I see is the need to roll the genoa each time you tack - but I guess if you plan on tacking much, you use the jib. It would be interesting to get opinions from anyone who has this set-up

I don't know why anyone needs so many furlers. If you don't care about the expense, then think of the windage, and the potential for tangled lines (think of all the sheets and furling lines!).

There is no need at all for all this complexity. Every single one of these functions can be fulfilled very well by only two -- count 'em, two -- sails, on two furlers, used in different combinations. It's not a new idea. It's called a cutter rig.

First of all: your staysail sweeps the deck (as they say), picking up the air down low, and so allows you to dispense with having any genoa at all. The main headsail can be smaller, less overlapping, and high cut. A yankee jib, in other words. The yankee is easy to tack through the slot in front of the inner forestay, because of the high clew. (It happens to be also easier to trim with less manipulation of cars, because of the better sheeting angle to the high clew, but that's not on topic.)

The yankee, being smaller,will also furl down smaller than a larger genoa would, giving you more options to depower than a genoa. Your first step of depowering the headsails is to furl the staysail. Then you start bringing in the yankee. You have a lot of options, equivalent to a whole locker of hank-ons.

Then in a real storm, you put away the yankee and pull out the staysail again. The staysail happens to be the same size as a storm jib, and it lives on the inner forestay close to the mast, far back aft and down low, just where you want a storm jib to be. On our boat, the staysail, to boot, is self-tacking, which further reduces the workload just when you need this -- in heavy weather. With the yankee furled, the whole rig becomes self-tacking. I think most modern cutters are rigged like this; it's great.

Voila. To my mind, for a blue-water cruising boat which needs to be able to handle a great range of weather conditions, this is the best possible headsail configuration, giving you as wide or wider range of different sail areas, all with efficient sail shape, as a whole locker full of hank-ons, while requiring you to purchase and use only two headsails, both of which can be fully managed from the cockpit.

For ultimate performance (wandering off topic a little), a sloop with removeable inner forestay and hank-on storm jib might be slightly better than a cutter rig. But you lose an enormous amount of versatility.

[NoahH28Ketch]

[QUOTE=Dockhead;414489]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

This is a good solution if your boat balances ok, but otherwise you will need the inner forestay.

The H28 Ketch balances great with a furled Headsail/Genoa and reefed or unreefed Mizzen perfectly. Furling in/out to balance the helm is the method I use frequently in the gulf here in South Australia.

Up to 18 knots, run all 3 sails.

20 knots, drop the main or reef to 2nd reef on the main if on a beam reach or more and furl in headsail to balance helm.

25-30 knots Drop main, furl headsail to match sail area of mizzen, then balance helm with same.

35-40 knots reef mizzen and just a rag of headsail required, will still get along at 6-7 knots like this!

OR drop mizzen and furl headsail right in and run with just a Main at 3rd reef if the sea state is a bit short and choppy, or with a following sea, run a preventer forward to the bowsprit if required.

I've not been out in anything over 40 knots yet, but I would experiment with 3 reefs in the main, or if that was too much, just a rag of headsail out and a couple of reefs in the mizzen.

If I was to do a circumnavigation, I would fit running backstays from the spreaders, and an inner forestay with storm jib and halyard in a bag on the foredeck, and I'd fit a second track to the mast with a storm trysail made for it out of bright orange material.

In my opinion, the furler on Noah rates as one of my favourite things, second only to the raymarine SPX-5 Tillerpilot and remote control for it.

[bewitched]

Thanks for the explanation Nick, but I'm still not convinced.

I've had sails rip out of foils before so can appreciate where you are coming from, but isn't that why we tie them on?

A breaking furling line says to me that it's to small, nothing more.

Foil sections ripping apart? - I just can't see that - A genoa heeling the boat until the toe rail dips vs a storm jib heeling the boat to the same extent. The wind strength is in each case is very different, but the force felt by the foil itself is roughly the same - OK maybe a bit more as the centre of effort of the storm jib is lower, but not hugely so.

But you are right, we must all make our own choices and live with the consequences.

For the record, all sails flown off my inner stay are hank on

[bewitched]

Good post Dockhead

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't know why anyone needs so many furlers. If you don't care about the expense, then think of the windage, and the potential for tangled lines (think of all the sheets and furling lines!)

I don't disagree - just throwing it out there.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For ultimate performance (wandering off topic a little), a sloop with removeable inner forestay and hank-on storm jib might be slightly better than a cutter rig. But you lose an enormous amount of versatility.

This is what I have - staysail hanks on too. Where do you see the performance being lost on your system - windward performance only, or do you think it affects other points of sail?

I should also point out that my system is a PITA when tacking the genoa in lighter winds with the inner stay in place. So much so that I remove it completely when not cruising.

But offshore in some wind with night coming, that's when I love my little staysail