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Old 10-02-2009, 13:13   #1
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Got the rig hardware, wire, now the work begins !

We have our hardware for the rig. Searig hardware and some good Korean 1x19 wire. Now we need to cut it up and get it swaged somewhere.

Before we chop it into bits to swage, we need to tune the rig so the stay lengths are correct to measure for the new lengths.

I am Ok with the tuning ideas, but how vertical should the mast sit relative to the fore-aft waterline (or deck) on a boat like ours (Joe Adams 35', steel cruising design) ?????

I looked around the bay at similar dual inline spreader rigs and there were all different angles, one adams had a distinct aft tilt of the mast, another had a slighlty forward tilt, most boats had slight tilt aft or were vertical. No doubt how they are loaded under way will affect this tilt to a degree.

Any suggestions as to what to aim for (mast has a notable prebend designed into it) ?
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Old 10-02-2009, 13:41   #2
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Caveat - I am not a rigger, nor pretend to be.

I would suggest that your mast should be raked just slightly aft of vertical. bear in mind that the length of thread on your turnbuckles should allow you a fair amount of "tuning".
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Old 10-02-2009, 13:48   #3
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Might be best to specify the length you want (eye to eye or fork to fork)and let the swager do the cutting etc...? Also, if possible find someone who does rotary swaging rather then just squeezing...
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Old 10-02-2009, 13:56   #4
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Thanks - that sounds logical. One of the key reasons for asking is that the backstay turnbuckle had only a few threads in the body, where as the inner forestay had most threads turned into the turnbuckle. The mast is currently fairly vertical and so if it rakes a little back that would even out (center) the threads on the adjusters. I figured that getting the rig in the final position would give me better wire lengths with the ability to adjust either way in the future, If I cut the wires too biased one way or the other then I am limited in future adjustments.
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Old 10-02-2009, 13:59   #5
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Rotary swaging, I know this is the best, but I have not found anyone who does it in Sydney. When I asked about it last week mostly I got blank looks. Roller swaging rules here.
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Old 10-02-2009, 15:50   #6
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I think the are the same thing... semantics. The hammers rotate around the fitting cold working it uniformly. The other kind just Squeezes two sides at a time, kind of like a wire crimper. How's your helm? Maybe your mast is adjusted to t he forward limit to avoid weather helm....?
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Old 10-02-2009, 15:54   #7
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Keep in mind that many boats do better to weather with a 5 degree mast rake, (not to be confused with prebend) but to me, it's all about the helm.

If the boat has weather helm, you shorten the forestay (mast is more vertical). If it has lee helm, lengthen it and tighten the backstay (mast is raked). If it has balanced helm, you're good to go.

Prebend is matching the mast curve to the main sail cut and should be unchanged.
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Old 10-02-2009, 19:27   #8
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Can't say much about the weather helm on this vessel as we had not sailed it since we got it 3 years ago, all restoration since then.

Sounds like i should aim for the middle ground and then tweek it here or there afterwards to get the helm balanced.
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Old 10-02-2009, 22:39   #9
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Keep in mind that many boats do better to weather with a 5 degree mast rake, (not to be confused with prebend) but to me, it's all about the helm.

If the boat has weather helm, you shorten the forestay (mast is more vertical). If it has lee helm, lengthen it and tighten the backstay (mast is raked). If it has balanced helm, you're good to go.

Prebend is matching the mast curve to the main sail cut and should be unchanged.
Don't know anything about the boat but I'll have to agree with TC. The idea is to move the center of effort to the spot that balances the helm. On race boats this may change depending on the wind conditions and point of sail. You might want to talk to the owners of other boats like yours or riggers and find out is there are specific tricks for boats such as yours. Most boats like the rig raked aft when going upwind but some are unbearable to steer with lots of rake. Do some homework before you cut the wire!
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Old 10-02-2009, 23:00   #10
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I never realised that the rake was so important, but I do now.

I do not know of other Adams35 owners to ask, but I will have a dig around old photos of adams of the same vintage as ours and see if any show mast rake. The Adams next to us is a Zeston 36, a different layout though very similar under the waterline. It is slightly raked forward (ever so slightly) and he just got back from a 5-6000km cruise.

The difference with our is we have the cruising fin keel that is 6" shallower but longer & our is filled with steel, not lead, so it will probably not point up wind as well as a lead laden and stiffer vessel. But that is theory, and we are yet to sail it to find out.

I have heard that the fixed prop will cause it to round up into the wind, and in time we should get a folding or feathering prop. That comment was by one of the designers of the vessel.
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:27   #11
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I never realised that the rake was so important, but I do now.

I do not know of other Adams35 owners to ask, but I will have a dig around old photos of adams of the same vintage as ours and see if any show mast rake. The Adams next to us is a Zeston 36, a different layout though very similar under the waterline. It is slightly raked forward (ever so slightly) and he just got back from a 5-6000km cruise.

The difference with our is we have the cruising fin keel that is 6" shallower but longer & our is filled with steel, not lead, so it will probably not point up wind as well as a lead laden and stiffer vessel. But that is theory, and we are yet to sail it to find out.

I have heard that the fixed prop will cause it to round up into the wind, and in time we should get a folding or feathering prop. That comment was by one of the designers of the vessel.
I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but it seems to me that if each boat has differences in keel and ballast that you will need to figure out the proper position for your mast on your particuilar boat. When racing J24's we used to have different settings for different wind conditions. That was way to technical. May I suggest using stalock fittings on the forestay and back stay and cutting the wire a little long that way if you need to make it shorter you can do that with relative ease.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:52   #12
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It's pretty common for us all to get enamoured with outfitting our boats to the point where we forget to sail 'er! I did a lot of things to my boats using visualization, reading books, and theory. Once I was out cruising.... reality struck and I realized there were often easier or better ways of doing what I had spent my time doing...
Is it possible to delay the rigging for now and get out sailing some? Best case scenario is to get your turnbuckles in the mid range of adjustment ONCE YOU GET YOUR RIG ADJUSTED to balance the helm. Going to weather, the boat should want to round up when you let go of the helm, but not too abruptly. I actually prefer it to just barely do so, but they say it is a safety thing I guess.
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:13   #13
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In theory shouldn't you sail the boat first with the old rig, balance the boat then add the new wire so the rig will remain the same? Rake is only to move the center of effort fore and aft on a boat to ease the helm.
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:33   #14
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We are progressively re-rigging. Because of the high winds this week we took off 2 of the 4 lowers yesterday and made new ones, they went back on this morning, then we removed the innerforestay and the other 2 lowers, made new ones and will put them on the rig tomorrow, then we remove the caps and upper shrouds and replace, last will be the forestay and backstay. We will try ot tune the rig roughly then make the replacement F & B stays.

The true tuning will have to happen over time as we sail. Using swageless fittings would have been nice, but we have the swage fittings now. If we get it wrong then we may have to remake one stay and shorten the other.
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:06   #15
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It is usual to put a bit of rake on the mast as it looks better, typically at a rate of around 300mm per 15,000mm which equates to about 1 degree. There is some claim that some rake also results in a more efficient rig but I doubt if one would notice on a cruising boat.

I would expect you are going to have to play around a hell of a lot making real big changes in the rake if you expect to change the balance of a cruising boat much. In fact I doubt if you could adjust the rake in the amounts required without recutting the stays due to the lack of turnbuckle travel. Booms generally look best horizontal too rather than being rampant or droopy, so unless you are planning on new sails you may wish to keep that in mind too.

Personally I would just set the mast up with rake as above and if any doubts about that being sensible consult a rigger before raking up unneccesary trouble for yourself by getting into mucking around with it under the guise of "tuning". In fact I've never known anyone play around with the rake of a new build cruising boat - normally seem to be just rigged as the rigging plan and then shroud tension checked whilst sailing heeled.
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