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Old 20-08-2006, 10:16   #1
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Glassed in Chainplates

Ahoy You Salty Dogs and Cats!

My Allied Luders 33 is 40 yrs old and has heavily glassed in chainplates. I know they haven't been changed for 4 decades and I presume being glassed in adds to the load carrying ability. However, once again, our evil foe "crevice corrosion" is one I've had battles with before.

Namely on my Mariner 31 off of Cabo Falso when I lost an aft lower chainplate in 12 knots of wind!!!! 12 knots!!!! Granted Cabo Falso is very, very lumpy and the wood main mast of the Mariner pumps wildly in conditions like that ( light wind, short, steep leftover sea) The crazy thing was the chainplate broke an inch and a half below the deck. Crevice corrosion rears it's ugly head! I could only assume that on the 34 yr old boat all of ss chainplates would be subject to CC's attacks. So I replaced them all in La Paz, one at a time...in 90 degree heat..anyway, I digress...

The Allied is "heavily glassed" in and to replace those is nothing less than a monumentally sadistic event. So for the collective genius of Cruiser's Forum I am submitting this alternative for your review:

To install one sufficiently sized chainplate on each side which
would provide a jury rig point/plate should my nemesis crevice
corrosion return.

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, complaints...........all welcome.

Aloha and Mahalo,
Mike
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Old 20-08-2006, 11:22   #2
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Your concerns are valid. One solution that has been discussed here previously is to grind out the glassed in chainplates, and mount new ones outside the hull. This would, to me, seem the most reasonable solution. Failed chain plates is way down on the rigging failure concern list, but the fix in this sort of situation is a major project, and should certainly be done before going offshore.
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Old 20-08-2006, 11:54   #3
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Unfortunately, glassed in chain plates are an accident waiting to happen. You have already had the experience with crevice corrosion so you know the danger. If it was me, I'd be in there with a grinder in a heartbeat and replace them with bronze.

This is apparently a problem with the early Allieds. I was almost ready to hop on a plane and look at a Seabreeze when chainplate replacement just happened to be mentioned. I couldn't get any pictures or solid information off the internet to figure out how big a job this was going to be. It's a dirty job and probably not easy because of access. If I read your post correctly, you are thinking about installing a new set of plates outside the FRP glassed in ones. That sounds like a novel approach. Might even be the easiest route especially if you have enough access to cut off the old ones at or below deck level. If you haven't worked with Stainless before, grinding is the best way to cut the plates. Stainless work hardens almost instantly with a hacksaw and is like trying to cut cobalt steel. Not something I'd wish on anyone and sure to occupy your time for way too long.

FWIW, had a line on a free Tartan 27. They'd lost the mast because of crevice corrosion in the glassed in plates. In doing research, found that Tartan built up the chain plate mounts with plywood. That meant at least one side of the chain plate knees had to be cut away and the plywood ripped out as it was amost guaranteed to be riddled with rot. It actually made the R&R easier as it's way simpler to rip out rotten plywood rather than a solid FRP laminate. You only had to cut rip away one side and the chain plates practically fell out as the bolts were corroded into history. Then it was a rebuild of the knee laminating FRP to regain the strength of the FRP/plywood sandwich and bolting on new plates out in the open.

Good luck. The Luders are beautiful boats and certainly worth the effort to keep them going.

Aloha
Peter O.
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Old 20-08-2006, 12:14   #4
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Mike,

Bite the bullet....replace them NOW!

I don't care if they're heavily encased in fiberglass or honey.

Don't risk your rig, your boat, or your life on 40-year old chainplates.

My $ .02

Bill
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Old 21-08-2006, 08:40   #5
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When you replace them, you may want to give consideration to carbon fiber. Here are several websites showing the construction and installation of carbon fiber chain plates. One on a new tri, the other on an older design mono. I would recommend you have an engineering study done though.

http://www.fram.nl/workshop/floats/floats.htm

http://members.cox.net/building.galene/Chainplates.html

hth, Deep
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Old 21-08-2006, 20:15   #6
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They should never let wood boat guys near that stuff. I picked up a carbon fiber wheel at the boat show a few years back and almost through it across the building I hear it's strong stuff though
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Old 21-08-2006, 21:03   #7
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"grind out the glassed in chainplates, and mount new ones outside the hull."

I've thought about replacing them in their present location, however, I've always appreciated the ability to inspect external chainplates. Any reason why this isn't preferred or feasible?

Mahalo for you interest and advice.

Aloha,
Mike
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Old 21-08-2006, 21:08   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors
Mike,

Bite the bullet....replace them NOW!

I don't care if they're heavily encased in fiberglass or honey.

Don't risk your rig, your boat, or your life on 40-year old chainplates.

My $ .02

Bill
Thanks Bill, I really appreciate your concern. I knew I liked this site for a reason. People with passion, knowledge and the generosity to share it.

Mahalo,

Mike
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Old 21-08-2006, 21:26   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi
If it was me, I'd be in there with a grinder in a heartbeat and replace them with bronze.

you are thinking about installing a new set of plates outside the FRP glassed in ones. That sounds like a novel approach. Might even be the easiest route


Good luck. The Luders are beautiful boats and certainly worth the effort to keep them going.

Aloha
Peter O.
Mahalo Peter for you reply. Many people here in California often confuse Manukea with a Pearson. Similar East Coast lines with overhangs and relatively narrow beam. I'm still surprised about the thickness of the glass on this boat, I truly am grateful. Even the cabin top has 1 inch thick glass.

I felt that if I mounted one chainplate on each side as an emergency jury rig point, I could make it to Hawai'i. Granted this is not the "yachty" thing to do, however, I've time and $ constraints. I'm not doing the Southern Ocean or any Cape Horns, I'm going to Hawai'i. Testing the original chainplates (on the passage) and having a backup chainplate for the uppers is a risk I may have to take. Maybe I should just do the uppers now and forego the "test". When I get to Honolulu, I can always do the others at my leisure. Hard to visualize the clean lines of Manukea with external chainplates...however, in the spirit of the original Porsche engineers: Function before form.

Aloha and Mahalo,

Mike
S/V Manukea
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Old 21-08-2006, 21:35   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz
When you replace them, you may want to give consideration to carbon fiber. Here are several websites showing the construction and installation of carbon fiber chain plates. One on a new tri, the other on an older design mono. I would recommend you have an engineering study done though.

http://www.fram.nl/workshop/floats/floats.htm

http://members.cox.net/building.galene/Chainplates.html

hth, Deep
Thanks Deep. I imagine carbon fiber chainplates are an innovative and valuable option for those concerned with weight.

My baby is more of the robust type, y'know the big beautiful woman who can look beautiful in a one piece bathing suit but should not be seen in a g-string. She can go the distance but she needs a little extra support to keep her together. She's more of an old fashioned lady.

Aloha and Thanks Again,

Mike
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Old 21-08-2006, 22:37   #11
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External chain plates aren't a big improvement. Crevice corrosion requires an absence of oxygen and an electrolyte. External plates are constantly exposed to an electrolyte and the side up against the hull gets no Oxygen. Had to replace the dinky little chainplates on my Westsail after 10 years in the tropics. They looked fine but were toast when I was forced to pull them at the demand of an insurance survey.

I'm not all that familiar with the layout of a Luders but could you just put one new chainplate on either side of the the glassed in old one. Grind off the the old plate from inside and reglass the hull, recut a new slot and run the new plate in. With a little nonskid paint, no one would know the difference and it would be hell for stout bolted through the old chain plate. Just a thought but it seemed like it might be a possibility for a quick and even elegant fix.

Go with Bronze plates and it's a permanent fix.

Aloha
Peter O.
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