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Old 07-09-2016, 18:10   #16
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Another possibility is that the sailmaker stuffed up when sewing the luff tape to the sail, making it too short. Then the tape takes the tension but leaves the sail slack.

Jim
+1!

Yep. If not this then not fully hoisted.

Very odd as the loft is prime.

b.
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Old 07-09-2016, 18:18   #17
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

You picture shows a lot of loose sail at the luff, or as Jim suggested, a luff sewn completely wrong.

I would suggest a couple of tests at the dock with the sail hoisted.

Get your binoculars and get away from the boat a ways so you have a good angle to see the top of the mast and the top swivel and the wrap stop assembly. Luff length is critical with roller furling and the halyard must tension with the wrap stop holding the tang on the upper swivel from rotating. If the luff is too short and they donít interface, you get a wrapping issue. If the luff is too long (or the tack is too high) the swivel hits the wrap stop before achieving proper tension on the halyard. This could well be your issue. Over tighten the halyard and you can screw up the wrap stop or at least pull it out of correct position. On many systems the difference between too long and too short can be a matter of a few inches so this is very critical.

I am assuming this all worked correctly with the other sail hoisted.

With someone else on the halyard watch it with the binocs. You will be able to see the two come together and whether it is all working together correctly. Under max halyard tension you still want some clearance between the stop and the swivel.

I like to do this at the masthead but that means climbing. It also teaches you a lot about how it all comes together up there and what can get away with and what wonít work. You want the loosest halyard tension you would ever sail with (which is normally the halyard released position where you want it when you furl.) to put the tang just into the wrapstop. You want the tightest halyard position to still have some clearance.

If the current luff is too long then you must shorten it. I like them a little short and then you can add a short pennant or lashing at the tack to get the hoist correct topside.

The weight of the sail should take the tension off when you ease the halyard and you will see some slack at the tack. With no wind load on the sail the tension should be uniform on everything, meaning the tack should have the same tension as the head and the luff has the same tension as the halyard.
Donít worry about the tack not following tight to the foil. If the halyard tension is correct it pretty much makes a straight line. The fact that you brought that up makes me suspect a too long condition.

But, if the hoist is correct topside and the tack is connected but still shows no tension then I would suspect the luff tape is badly sticking in the foil. See if you can drop the sail. It should almost come down by itself but being new you may will need a little pull to get it down. If you have to pull it hard to get it to slide in the foil then you found at least part of the problem.

Get the hoist right and then you can play with sheet lead. Depending on the cut of the sail the position of the lead block can vary quite a bit from sail to sail. A good set of tell-tails about a foot aft of the luff are a great help in getting all the parts to play together well.

Good Luck
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Old 07-09-2016, 19:34   #18
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

Most of the points on hoist height, halyard tension as relates to hoisting, etc. have been covered. But yeah, the luff's way too loose. That said, it would help to know what the sail is made of. Ditto on your halyard, & what diameter it is, as well as it's age. So that we can give you more feedback on how much each may be stretching, & if anything needs some attention.

Oh, & does the halyard run nice & freely when there's no sail on it? And when was the last time that you fully pulled it out of the mast for a serious inspection?
It takes about 5min to tuck & sew a reeving splice into the tail of a halyard, & they make it SO much easier to put halyards back in. ALL halyards should have them! They save an incredible amount of time.


For halyard tension for jibs on furlers, unless you're at sea or using the sail, you actually want to slack the halyard a bit. Especially when the boat's just sitting at the dock, or on the hook. So that the sail doesn't get prematurely stretched from being tightly hoisted 24/7. And this will also add to the longevity of your halyard as well. Make sense?


Regarding your jib car position, where a lead car is located should rarely be a static thing, as you want to adjust them in order to get the best power out of the sail, based on wind speed & angle, plus what heading relative to the wind.

Nominally you want all of your telltales breaking at the same time, regardless of wind angle/heading. And a jib of any sort should have 3 sets of them, minimum. Spaced out fairly evenly, vertically, starting from about chest height for the bottom set. And they should be say 2'+/- back from the luff. With it being fine to have more sets of them, especially on taller sails.


Plus, when you drop the sail to add these, or to take it to the loft. Do a good visual inspection of the furler, particularly it’s foil via a good set of bino’s or a camera with some good magnification. Looking for issues with the foil’s joints especially.



Also, if you want to be able to tune the sail's tack height, just use a piece of Dacron or Spectra, attached to the tack ring & then run down through the furler's tack shackle, & back through the two fittings a few times. And tie the line's bitter end to the vertical strands of the line itself with a series of half hitches. So that it essentially forms a lashing. Which you can even use it as a jib cunningham if you like.
Note: You shouldn't need to worry about the sail pulling out of the furler's foil down near the tack. Knock on wood. Assuming that the sail was made correctly.

One other trick to keep your furler foil running well, is to have the sailmaker stitch you up a piece of boltrope with a ring on it’s top & bottom ends, connected via a piece of webbing or sail cloth. Such that you can use said “tool” to clean the grooves in the foil every so often. And if you like, have a 2nd one that you use exclusively for lubricating things once they’re clean. Though only with dry lubricants.
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Old 07-09-2016, 20:29   #19
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

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Originally Posted by Bully View Post
There is definitely insufficient tension on luff, give it a real crank. Genoa car is a bit too far forward as well.
Concern about the wrinkles at the feeder point as this may mean the tack cut back is wrong. But may be fixed by increasing the halyard tension.
As a rule of thumb, grab the sail luff (leading edge) below the feeder where it is is exposed. It should be quite firm and hard to move sideways. But on picture that halyard tension is very soft..
As I said, the halyard is bar tight. Grabbing the bottom of the sail or the tack strap shows the very high tension.
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Old 07-09-2016, 20:41   #20
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

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Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
As I said, the halyard is bar tight. Grabbing the bottom of the sail or the tack strap shows the very high tension.
Unh oh... that makes a faullt in the sail construction look more probable to me.

I'd be having a word with the sailmaker... show him your pix and see what he says.

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Old 07-09-2016, 21:07   #21
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Most of the points on hoist height, halyard tension as relates to hoisting, etc. have been covered. But yeah, the luff's way too loose. That said, it would help to know what the sail is made of. Ditto on your halyard, & what diameter it is, as well as it's age. So that we can give you more feedback on how much each may be stretching, & if anything needs some attention.


The sail is just standard dacron - don't know the specific cloth right now.
The halyard is the original that came when I purchased the boat but it appears to be a fairly low quality line. Again, I do not understand how the quality of the halyard could possibly affect the sail unless you frequently adjust the halyard tension. I tend to tighten it and leave it tight (yes, I know I should release the tension)


Quote:
Oh, & does the halyard run nice & freely when there's no sail on it? And when was the last time that you fully pulled it out of the mast for a serious inspection?
It takes about 5min to tuck & sew a reeving splice into the tail of a halyard, & they make it SO much easier to put halyards back in. ALL halyards should have them! They save an incredible amount of time.


The halyard runs nice and clean. The sail drops quite a bit by itself. Sail has been out a month ago. The sail also hoists fine.

Quote:
For halyard tension for jibs on furlers, unless you're at sea or using the sail, you actually want to slack the halyard a bit. Especially when the boat's just sitting at the dock, or on the hook. So that the sail doesn't get prematurely stretched from being tightly hoisted 24/7. And this will also add to the longevity of your halyard as well. Make sense?
Makes sense ... my bad


Quote:
Regarding your jib car position, where a lead car is located should rarely be a static thing, as you want to adjust them in order to get the best power out of the sail, based on wind speed & angle, plus what heading relative to the wind.


This is my fault - I single hand and there is no way I am going out on the side decks on a regular basis to adjust jib cars. I pick one position and leave it there, fully realizing that it will not be anywhere near optimum.


Quote:
Nominally you want all of your telltales breaking at the same time, regardless of wind angle/heading. And a jib of any sort should have 3 sets of them, minimum. Spaced out fairly evenly, vertically, starting from about chest height for the bottom set. And they should be say 2'+/- back from the luff. With it being fine to have more sets of them, especially on taller sails.
Quote:


The jib has three sets of telltales and once in a blue moon I might even get them all breaking at the same time. The one advantage of not racing ... 'good enough' is perfectly acceptable in a lot of cases


[/QUOTE]
Plus, when you drop the sail to add these, or to take it to the loft. Do a good visual inspection of the furler, particularly it’s foil via a good set of bino’s or a camera with some good magnification. Looking for issues with the foil’s joints especially.
[/QUOTE]

Will do ... but the sail slides nicely.

Quote:
Also, if you want to be able to tune the sail's tack height, just use a piece of Dacron or Spectra, attached to the tack ring & then run down through the furler's tack shackle, & back through the two fittings a few times. And tie the line's bitter end to the vertical strands of the line itself with a series of half hitches. So that it essentially forms a lashing. Which you can even use it as a jib cunningham if you like.
Note: You shouldn't need to worry about the sail pulling out of the furler's foil down near the tack. Knock on wood. Assuming that the sail was made correctly.


The sail does not have a D ring at the tack but has the tack strap with a loop in the strap where it fits onto the furler (I did ask for the sail to fly a bit higher but I was surprised at not having a D ring on the tack)
The sail doesn't 'pull out of the foil' - the feed point on the foil is about ...hmmm... maybe 3 ft above the furler drum. The foot of the sail is about 8" (strap length) above the furler drum. Since the foot of the sail pulls on the luff and since the luff isn't held by the foil but is floating in mid air between the foil feed point and the furling drum, the sail tends to get pulled away from the foil (I sure hope that makes sense)
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Old 07-09-2016, 21:14   #22
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

So I tried three times to correct the "
Quote:
/
" mistakes but for some reason the modifications are not saved ... sorry about that.

grrrrrrrrrr .......
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Old 07-09-2016, 21:34   #23
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Unh oh... that makes a faullt in the sail construction look more probable to me.

I'd be having a word with the sailmaker... show him your pix and see what he says.

Jim
Yes, I did that. His comment was that we need to do a test sail together when we get 10 - 15 knts of wind. This seems reasonable except that winds in this corner of the world aren't too predictable to get together for a test sail. BTW, the sailmaker installed the sail on my boat after the shortening of the tack strap and if halyard tension was insufficient, I am sure he would have said something. He did comment on the stretchy halyard but again, I don't understand how this could be an issue.
When it really comes down to it, why couldn't you use a nylon halyard (or a fat rubber band) as long as you can get the required tension on the halyard ? If you needed 1000 lbs of pull (figure pulled out of the air), why does it matter if that 1000 lbs comes from a nylon halyard or an amsteel halyard as long as you have the 1000 lbs of tension ? The only thing I can see wrong with a stretchy halyard is if you are in a big blow and all of a sudden the sail pull due to wind exceeds the halyard tension and the halyard stretches some more. The picture was taken, if I remember correctly, at about 15 knt relative wind speed which will not stretch the halyard beyond what the winch stretched it.
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Old 07-09-2016, 21:42   #24
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

When a halyard is cranked on super tightly, you'll see vertical wrinkles in the sail's luff. So based on what you're saying, something's preventing the sail from attaining it's full hoist. Whether it's too long for your headstay/foil, or there's some issue with it's construction. That or there's an issue with the furler itself.

In terms of questions about your halyard. We're asking things like what it's made of, it's construction type, age, diameter, etc. As Dacron halyards tend to be pretty stretchy. Often requiring retensioning when the wind speed changes by 5kts. Whereas a Spectra/Dyneema cored one will have way, way less stretch. Ditto on other "exotic" halyards. None of which are actually very expensive, & help your new sail to work a lot better.
And if you were to have say, a laminated jib, or one made of Spectra, Kevlar, etc. then a Dacron halyard would be at an even greater disadvantage. Requiring even more frequent retensioning.

On a boat that size, the halyard's stretching 'only' 1" after it's set initially can trash the jib's shape, & subsequently, pointing ability & speed.
Go to the Samson Ropes website & look up how much the different cordage types stretch under load. That, & ask yourself why racers go bonkers over reducing the amount of stretch in a sail or line by 0.01% of it's length. And no I'm not kidding. I've made owner's of boats I've raced on professionally, spend $1k for a better halyard just for 3 day races... And it paid off!

BTW, once you've had adjustable jib leads, it's hard to sail on boats without them. They're for the jib what a traveler is for the main, & are kind of indispensible.


PS: Typically seeing vertical wrinkles in your sail's luff indicates too much halyard tension. Unless it's really windy, or you're working with racing sails, & know how to tune their controls, including the halyard.
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Old 07-09-2016, 21:51   #25
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

If I tighten my genoa halyard too much the sail will not roll out smoothly. Maybe a turn or two and then it is stuck and won't unfurl any more. So I find I need to just leave the sail slightly loose at the tack then it works great. Just a little extra something to think about.

I bought new sails from Doyle Barbados last summer & our genny doesn't have these wrinkles.

Btw, our boat is a Lagoon 420.


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Old 07-09-2016, 23:14   #26
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

Taking another look, the leech of the sail has a fair bit of vertical tension in it. By any chance, are you trying to pull up the halyard when the sail is sheeted in tight with the sheet lead so far forward it is nearly vertical? As well as moving the lead back, the halyard should be tensioned with the sheet eased.
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Old 08-09-2016, 00:58   #27
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

Your furler manufacturer should have a sketch detailing the sails knockback measurements which details the set back measurements of the head and tack attachment points from the bolt rope, also the two recomended measurements from the end of bolt rope to the head and tack.
Get that from the furler manufacturer and drop your sail and compare what it is to what it should be, then have your sailmaker fix it.
Your sailmaker could even have the dimensions on file for your furler.
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Old 08-09-2016, 01:19   #28
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

I think you should go out with the sailmaker. It will be a "no charge" lesson in sail trim for your boat from an expert. You'll learn a lot. I always jump at the chance to go out with a sailmaker.

If he messed up on the luff (certainly possible), it will bother him much more than you. His logo is on the sail -- those wrinkles are a terrible advertisement for his loft.

But I suspect the "stretchy" halyard. It's amazing how much downward force is put on the halyard when sailing. "Bar tight" to your hand is probably 200 lbs. The tension under sail is likely over 1000 lbs. If that halyard is 50ft long down to the winch, then if the halyard stretches just 1% more when sailing that becomes 6" of wrinkles on the luff. Assuming the halyard is old, just replace it. Replace the main halyard too. It's likely to noticeably improve upwind performance. Two relatively inexpensive "middle of the road" options are Sampson MLX or New England Ropes VPC.

And to the previous post, the sheet should always be slack with the sail fully unrolled and luffing when tightening the halyard.

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Old 08-09-2016, 01:54   #29
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
. . .
In terms of questions about your halyard. We're asking things like what it's made of, it's construction type, age, diameter, etc. As Dacron halyards tend to be pretty stretchy. Often requiring retensioning when the wind speed changes by 5kts. Whereas a Spectra/Dyneema cored one will have way, way less stretch. Ditto on other "exotic" halyards. None of which are actually very expensive, & help your new sail to work a lot better.
And if you were to have say, a laminated jib, or one made of Spectra, Kevlar, etc. then a Dacron halyard would be at an even greater disadvantage. Requiring even more frequent retensioning.

On a boat that size, the halyard's stretching 'only' 1" after it's set initially can trash the jib's shape, & subsequently, pointing ability & speed.
Go to the Samson Ropes website & look up how much the different cordage types stretch under load. That, & ask yourself why racers go bonkers over reducing the amount of stretch in a sail or line by 0.01% of it's length. And no I'm not kidding. I've made owner's of boats I've raced on professionally, spend $1k for a better halyard just for 3 day races... And it paid off!. . . .

Pay attention to this! Don't scrimp on the halyards. Otherwise the money you've spent on new sails won't do you any good.

What happens is this -- "tension is tension, right" -- NOT! This confuses static tension with dynamic tension. You may get 300kg of static tension on the halyard (say) with the winch, but when you start sailing, the forces imparted by the wind may add a ton to that. If the halyard is stretchy, then the static tension you put on disappears and the shape blows out.

One of the best places you can spend money is on decent halyards. Use racing dyneema. It won't cost you $1k.


Having struggled with stretchy halyards on a previous boat, I knew not to make this mistake when I had my mast out 3 years ago for rerigging, and did all new dyneema halyards. What I did NOT know was that stretchy sheets also cause similar problems. When I had new sails made last year, I made a big mistake by ignoring Uncivilized's advice to use dyneema sheets. It happens that I chafed the sheets last year and had to replace them this year. This time I went with dyneema and -- wow, what a difference! I think I was confusing dynamic and static tension in my mind, when I formed the mistaken idea that stretch in the sheets doesn't matter much. I was wrong!
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:18   #30
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Re: Genny luff tension ?

Thanks Dockhead. And on a Catalina 36', no, your halyards wont cost $1k. That was a Big 80' racing boat, that needed a long, thick, Vectran halyard. Also, Dockhead has Vectran sails, which next to yours, do not stretch at all, & thus they need less stretchy sheets as well as halyards in order to perform well.

My suggestion is to go with 3/8" Warpspeed II, or Maxi-Braid Plus; in White, or Grey The the colors are denoted, since other ones are typically used for different control lines. So it's best not to use them for such.
Edit: See below on this for more info.

Warpspeed & Maxi-Braid Plus use unblended Spectra/Dyneema for their cores, which is where their strength comes from. Their cores have other names like; Amsteel Blue, SK75 or SK78 Dyneema (Spectra) etc. And it's a great material, with incredible abrasion resistance, & superior UV resistance. Such that as long as you don't have any sharp spots or burrs on your sheaves, or in your mast, the lines will easily last 15-20yrs.

Such Spectra also stretches less than anything other than a purely racing halyard, & at less cost. Especially when compared to a blended Spectra/Dyneema cored halyard. Which, we're trying to eliminate stretch so as to get & keep better sail shape.

Here are a few reference pages & informational charts on lines, & how to select them.
Sailboat Line & Running Rigging Selection Guide | APS <-- A line selection guide by a good chandlery
Sailing, Rigging, Running Rigging Rope
http://samsonrope.com/Documents/Broc..._Guide_WEB.pdf
http://samsonrope.com/Documents/Broc..._Guide_WEB.pdf


* On boats with more than 2-3 halyards, it's usually best to stick to standard halyard color codes so that when people are in a hurry or new to the boat, it's easy for them to identify the correct line on the cabin top.
- Main & Jib Halyards are most often White with some type of tracer. Or sometimes Grey.
- Spinnaker Halyards are Red & Green, for Port & Starboard, respectively.
- Topping Lift, for the Spinnaker Pole is Blue.
And there are some other control lines & colors, including blended patterns. But these lines are labeled as to their purpose.


PS: The above mentioned $1K Jib Halyard helped us to win 2nd place overall in the prestigious Big Boat Series on SF Bay. As it kept the jib's luff length constant, & correct via it's not stretching under the continually varying loads which is was subjected to. THAT was definitely a fun, & memorable, racing series!
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