Galvanized or Stainless Steel Rigging?

[boden36]

I am just taking the gal rigging off our boat . It is 30 years old and would last a lot longer but I am getting too old to go up there and paint it every few years.
Before it went up it was soaked in fish oil. I paint it with a 50 percent mix of fish oil and oil based silver paint.
It is fiddly hanging from a bosun's chair with a little paintbrush and a can to silver paint. One day I was up high and dropped the can. It was headed for my wife on deck. I saw my life pass in front of my eyes! Luckily it missed her but made a hell of a mess on the cabin top!
The rigging screws are wrapped in Denso tape and then with plastic duck tape.

Regards,
Richard.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by boden36

I am just taking the gal rigging off our boat . It is 30 years old and would last a lot longer but I am getting too old to go up there and paint it every few years.
Before it went up it was soaked in fish oil. I paint it with a 50 percent mix of fish oil and oil based silver paint.
It is fiddly hanging from a bosun's chair with a little paintbrush and a can to silver paint. One day I was up high and dropped the can. It was headed for my wife on deck. I saw my life pass in front of my eyes! Luckily it missed her but made a hell of a mess on the cabin top!
The rigging screws are wrapped in Denso tape and then with plastic duck tape.

Regards,
Richard.

Not sure why you are doing all that climbing. We just removed each stay individually, serviced and then reattached. Assuming you have enough running riggings, mast should stay put, even if deck mounted.

Plus if you go one or two sizes up on the galvanized rigging, really do not need to do much for two years. For our old family schooner we got old cable from wherever we could, including phone companies, construction waste sites, etc. Dirt cheap. We also painted the cables with coal tar epoxy, and except for deck level, left it at that. We did saturate the fittings in zinc loaded paint. Otherwise the rigging has survived for eons.

Final note: working at heights never a good idea. On our old wetsnail tub we modified the main and mizzen masts to be hinged four feet above deck level so they could be lowered into their crutches from deck level. No need to go aloft, no need for cranes to rip the rigging apart, and no need for a yard. Plenty of instructions to show how to make such for sailboats. Essential when short handed cruising.

[moniia]

Yuppie!! How nice is to see people who actually say galvanised is ok. When I put mine couple of years back I was almost sunk by comments of negative spice

Really happy with that rigging mind you, boat is happy too. And I have about 100 meters of galvanised steel wire rope under so I can always redo the whole thing, one at the time even at sea

Edit:
Ps. Don't take me wrong, I would have to be mad to do it at sea, it is pretty strong stuff and old type cutter rig so practically bulletproof but the sheer comfort of knowing that it is possible is simply priceless (for everything else you can pay with MasterCard ).

[moniia]

Originally Posted by gjordan

You definitely dont want galvy headstays. The constant small motion of the hanks up and down on the headstay will wear out hanks much too fast. S.S. 1 by 19 is much smoother. Actually I think (an opinion) that anything you save on going galvy will degrade the value of your boat much more than the savings, so it depends on if you can accept that or not? Just another opinion. _____Grant.

Taking into account a starting price of my boat, it is not possible to degrade it at all by choice of rigging

Ferrocement hull does it already - and somehow I'm not bothered by that factor...

[moniia]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

there's galvanizing and then there's galvanizing. Be sure to get good stuff. But realistically, the cost of the wire is not the big cost in rerigging. Get good SS.

It is really not about the cost...

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by moniia

It is really not about the cost...

Pray tell then, just what is it about? Enquiring minds want to know.

Jim

[moniia]

Was already said in above posts. Galvanised steel gives you plenty of warning before giving up. Stainless rarely so.
Galvanised steel is actually stronger then stainless- for example on my boat I would have to get a size up with stainless compared to size of galvanised one (I know, I've checked).
Galvanised is available in pretty good quality all over the world. For very simple reason - all over the world it is used for lifting purposes (cranes but not only). If your rigging is prepared for galvanised steel - no other metal used along, for example for chainplates- re-rigging in far away place it's not a big problem.
Galvanised for many reasons is used in 7x7 or 7x19 variety. The reason may be that this stuff is easier (far easier!) to splice. Splicing is possible to do onboard and gives definitely better performance than swaged terminal (for start, does not require access to a 20T press with correct dies!).
Galvanised needs regular attention. Yes, I list that as positive. I know I'm quite lazy and with stainless steel which won't give any clues of some internal damage I won't go up the mast each week to check the rigging. With galvanised- I know that if I get up there I'll see straight away if something is not ok, so I go and check. Carrying a piece of cloth and a small bottle of kerosene, so I can wipe each wire with liberal doses of it. I can get some lanolin on from time to time as well. It takes a bit of time, but keeps rigging in perfect condition and I know its condition at all the times.

And yes, on top of that - it is dirt cheap. But that is only an extra advantage. Not the main reason but nice, thanks to that I really do not risk going anywhere with a rig of which I'm not 100% certain- because if I have ANY doubts, I can always change certain wire in almost no time. Because, being dirt cheap and on heavy displacement boat I can carry wire rope for double of what is used in my entire rig, together with other elements. And change it even at sea, if I really need to (yes, for that I would really NEED to change it...).

So, being cheap is about 7th or 8th reason in the list. At least mine - the list has probably a bit different order for different people but I doubt it has hugely different positions on it. And I do not think that on many of such lists cost is on the top. Probably below first three...

[dlymn]

I'm replacing my mainstays. Stainless wire etc 300 euros, riggers 400 euros. Have you checked that your insurer approves galv wires and self rigging?

[Jim Cate]

Galvanised steel is actually stronger then stainless- for example on my boat I would have to get a size up with stainless compared to size of galvanised one (I know, I've checked).

Several posters have said this. I just checked and wonder...
Breaking strengths

5/16 7x7 galvo: 9200 lbs
5/16 7x19 galvo: 9800 lbs

8 mm (near as dammit 5/16 inch) compact strand 316 s/s:13,500 lbs

Galvanised for many reasons is used in 7x7 or 7x19 variety

BOth of these rope constructions are pretty stretchy. This may be ok in your rig, but it is not in mine, nor in most modern boats. 1x19 construction is better, but Snow petrel has reported that it is difficult to source in galvo, and it is certainly difficult to splice by hand. Compact strand is even better than conventional 1x19, both in strength and low stretch characteristics, and as far as I know is unavailable in galvo.

Galvanised needs regular attention. Yes, I list that as positive

I doubt if many folks regard this in the positive light that you do. Failure to perform regular maintenance on galvo has definite bad results, while decent quality s/s can be ignored in terms of active maintenance.

So, for me, the arguments that galvo is superior fail to convince. It's low cost is attractive, but the rest of the factors seem imaginary for most boats. Obviously, the type of boat is a big factor in acceptance. Traditional types with low aspect rigs and traditional "looks" seem more appropriate venues for galvo. Industrial rigging screws and bulldog clamps would be kinda peculiar on a new Swan.

Jim

[Pauls]

Hi Jim,

For me the greatest attraction of galv rigging is reliability and longevity. it is a fact that stainless corrodes when exposed to chlorides and that stress accelerates its corrosion. stainless must be exposed to the atmosphere to maintain its oxide layer protection. This means that it cannot be protected from the corrosive environment. Galvanized steel is not troubled with stress corrosion and does not need to be exposed to the atmosphere so it can be properly protected, as I described earlier. Properly protected galv rigging can last a lifetime. Stainless cannot. This is not just my opinion, read Brion Toss on the subject.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Pauls

Hi Jim,

For me the greatest attraction of galv rigging is reliability and longevity. it is a fact that stainless corrodes when exposed to chlorides and that stress accelerates its corrosion. stainless must be exposed to the atmosphere to maintain its oxide layer protection. This means that it cannot be protected from the corrosive environment. Galvanized steel is not troubled with stress corrosion and does not need to be exposed to the atmosphere so it can be properly protected, as I described earlier. Properly protected galv rigging can last a lifetime. Stainless cannot. This is not just my opinion, read Brion Toss on the subject.

Paul, while nothing you say is incorrect, I feel that there is a matter of scale involved. Stainless isn't a lifetime wire... OK, but in most applications it will last fifteen years or so before worry becomes too big a burden. The common belief that it must be replaced at ten years is driven by insurers, and they are driven by a fear of writing checks, and I believe, not statistics that say stainless rigs fall down at year eleven! There are plenty of s/s rigs still in use with 20+ years of age, albeit uninsured!

Yes, chloride exposure isn't s/s's best attribute, and yes, it must have oxygen to maintain the oxide layer, but in fact, if it is decent 316 wire, it survives pretty well.

In around 40 years and well over a hundred thousands of miles, I've had two failures of s/s wire. One was due to the inner core being badly wasted on a ~15 year old 304 baby stay that I had not replaced when I re-rigged the boat prior to departure (it was an odd size and I erroneously thought the baby stay didn't take much load) This was an application where galvo would have done just as well functionally, and likely would not have had a similar failure. Score one for use of galvo!!

The other was a forestay inside a roller furling headsail. Broke just where it came out of the upper Sta-Lok, well hidden by the foil. This was likely a fatigue failure, was in an area very difficult to inspect and little affected by salt exposure. Here I do not think galvo would have been acceptable. As others have noted, the zinc will wear off inside the foil at t he bearing areas, and rust will eventually win out, compromising the wire where you can't see it nor dose it with magic goop ("slushing"... what an attractive term!). And apparently 1x19 galvo is not so readily available and other construction is not acceptable as a forestay in most rigs and to most skippers.

So, sure, galvo has it's good points, but IMO they do not fit well into a modern rig on a modern style boat... like the vast majority of cruisers sail these days.

Jim

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Several posters have said this. I just checked and wonder...
Breaking strengths

5/16 7x7 galvo: 9200 lbs
5/16 7x19 galvo: 9800 lbs

8 mm (near as dammit 5/16 inch) compact strand 316 s/s:13,500 lbs




BOth of these rope constructions are pretty stretchy. This may be ok in your rig, but it is not in mine, nor in most modern boats. 1x19 construction is better, but Snow petrel has reported that it is difficult to source in galvo, and it is certainly difficult to splice by hand. Compact strand is even better than conventional 1x19, both in strength and low stretch characteristics, and as far as I know is unavailable in galvo.



I doubt if many folks regard this in the positive light that you do. Failure to perform regular maintenance on galvo has definite bad results, while decent quality s/s can be ignored in terms of active maintenance.

So, for me, the arguments that galvo is superior fail to convince. It's low cost is attractive, but the rest of the factors seem imaginary for most boats. Obviously, the type of boat is a big factor in acceptance. Traditional types with low aspect rigs and traditional "looks" seem more appropriate venues for galvo. Industrial rigging screws and bulldog clamps would be kinda peculiar on a new Swan.

Jim

I've just sourced and bought the galvo wire for my rerig, from a mix of sources in australia. 10mm galv 1960 grade 1x19 for the caps and lowers and 1960 grade 7x7 in 9mm and 8mm for the intermediates. All with class A galvanising. The specific (strenth to weight) strength and stretch values are higher than equavalent stainless steel, though compact strand stainless wire is slightly better or similar on both counts. Nobles have some good info on the strenth comparisons, but you have to be carefull about the grades and exact sizes. Especially metric to imperial conversions. Grade makes minimal difference to stretch, but a big difference to ultimate tensile strength and yeild strength.

7x7 is actually not to bad compared to 1x19 stretch wise for the same strength or weight, but because its a bulkier construction it has more windage than 1x19, and it is pretty hard on sails and ropes due to the rougher surface.

The average price for the wire is around $1.50 per meter vs $18 or so for possibly substandard stainless and $30/m or so for decent quality compact strand stainless.

My next issue is finding a rigger who is happy to turnback and talurit swage 1x19 wire, as it is pretty hard to bend around a thimble.

Overall the rig weight with a dynex dux backstay will be comparible to the old rod rigging. It will be slightly strechier, and have more windage but lengthening the upper spreaders slightly decreases the loads and stretch on the caps considerably.

The new rigs bending characteristics under all load cases such as just deep reefed main, or just headsail are much better, and it should be more stable.

[Snowpetrel]

Just some comparisons from here http://www.nobles.com.au/Products/Wi...316-Grade-1x19

And here

http://www.nobles.com.au/Products/Wi...ator-Wire-Rope

9mm 7x7 2070 grade 31.1 kg/100m 60.2kN (6138kg breaking strain)

8mm 1x19 316 wire 32.o kg/100m 4810 kg breaking strain so around 20% less BS for the 316, 304 would be stronger but more prone to stress corrosion cracking in high chloride environments.

The strech for the two works out prettty similar.

In 10mm 1x19 the 1570 grade galv is around 88kN or 8973 kg BS vs 8400kg for the 316 version. 1570 is a pretty low grade. 1960 or 2070 is roughly 25% stronger. The galv 1x19 wire will have about 5-10% less stretch than the 316 wire.

Compact strand 316 is good stuff, it has better mechanical properties than normal 316 wire and is pretty close or slightly better than galv but its much more expensive than normal 1x19 and the swages can become the weak point.

[moniia]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

(..).



So, sure, galvo has it's good points, but IMO they do not fit well into a modern rig on a modern style boat... like the vast majority of cruisers sail these days.



Jim

Oh, I probably need to do some explaining... Marconi cutter with pretty tall mast is which one by you? Modern or old? (It is 40 years since it was built... But I doubt it differs a lot from one built yesterday).

Forestay? I have couple of those. I don't really care to much how stretchy they are because I do not put sails on them (except for a storm jib and storm staysail, which live down the stays, ready to be hoisted. But in case of these sails I don't really care about any stretch either...).

My jibs and staysails go up flying on rollers (not reefing there). So how good (or bad) luff is is up to me getting it properly hoisted (and my sailmaker preparing properly the luff ).

[reed1v]

We use to sail almost constantly. Never had stainless wire last longer than 4 to 5 years. The bronze fittings never had to be replaced. Like wise the stay-loks. But the wire would start to break at the fitting ends, one wire at a time.
So if you are out constantly cruising around the world in all sorts of conditions, be sure you regularly check your stainless rigging. As Jim said previously, its a great material, especially for the weekend warrior, but perhaps not so much for the long distance cruiser.

Our galvanized wire admittedly never had the punishment of the wetsnail under stainless rigging, but also only had one complete change of rigging over twice the time frame. As someone previously posted, galvanized steel is more ductile than stainless, thus absorbing stresses better.

One key to longevity and safety is to keep the galvanized rigging only moderately tight and let the entire rigging move to release tensions. In the olden days, manila rope provided a lot of stress release just by attaching the steel cables to wooden deadeyes that were attached to each other by manila. Tarred manila will last indefinitely. We never used deadeyes but know others who did, with satisfactory results.