Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-02-2009, 23:55   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oregon
Boat: Orca (Ingrid like) 38 "Legatia"
Posts: 2
Gaff rig for Ingrid ?

I have been building an Orca 38 (classic double ender like Ingrid 38) in my back yard for the past 8yrs or so. It is going well and I enjoy building and figure another 2-4yrs to complete. Obviously I am in no hurry.

The plans I have are for a cutter rig with a standard Bermuda main but I would like to use a gaff rigged main. I have read the "Gaff Rigg Handbook" and "Hand, Reef and Steer" and so am familiar with the attributes and dissadvantages of the gaff rig on paper.

My overall plan is to eventually finish my boat and do what she was made for, long distance cruising.

My questions are many
In the modern world of sailboat designers who will draw up a simple balanced gaff rig design for my boat?
Could a aluminum mast be utilized in such a design with surface reinforcement at gaff jaw contact points or a gaff joint that would ride in a large sail track? Has anybody seen such an arrangement?
If a classic solid pole mast is used is it so much heavier than aluminum that it will affect stability in such a heavy displacement full keeled boat? Since the gaff rig is shorter overall is this lower aspect heavier rig have more stability than the tall aluminum mast Bermuda rig?
Should I just forget about the gaff rig and go with the easy white bread Bermuda rig because this is all so complicated? I guess if I wanted to do that I would have bought a used production boat 8 years ago.
__________________

__________________
Legatia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2009, 00:31   #2
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
I don't know much about Gaff. My last boat was an Ingrid 38 and was Ketch rigged. She sailed beautifully. I wish she had been a cutter. The way the Orca was designed is better than the Ingrid in regards to simplicity of rig. We were in big winds and large seas this last June, pinched between tropical depression Boris and tropical depression Douglas. The only sail we had up was 50% of the roller furling. My shipmate told me we did 143 miles in a 24 hours period. My opinion? Leave it be.
__________________

__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2009, 02:01   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego
Boat: Fairweather Mariner/Westsail 39
Posts: 57
Having built, restored, and sailed several tens of thousands of miles in gaff rigged vessels (and still occcasionally put my time in with one) I dont see why your boat wouldn't work just fine with that rig. The original Colin Archer rescue boats from which the Ingrid design was derived certainly had them and just as anything else they do have viable advantages, but I imagine you would sacrifice perhaps half a point to a full point in going to weather. Nor, given the ongoing period ship and retro character boat projects in progress, should it be difficult to find a designer who could draw an appropriate rig and sail plan. However, I'm not sure how one would effectively marry a gaff of any size to a conventional aluminum mast with a track, nor how you would do it without spoiling the looks and simplicity that stands as one of the rigs attributes. There are certainly successful examples of gaff rigs with hollow wooden masts and I'm sure that these save weight aloft, provide a conduit for electrical wiring, etc. Also, its not a irreversible decision though probably an expensive one should you later change your mind.
__________________
squarerigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2009, 19:00   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 378
No reason not to use aluminum tube for your gaff mast, gaff and boom. The aluminum will provide equal strength at far less weight. The tubing wall thickness you will be using for the mast will be adequate to take the gaff loads without reinforcement, if the design of the jaws is OK for wood. If you think about it, the load has to be distributed across enough area to keep the pressure low enough to not crush the wood fibers. A moderate thickness aluminum tube will handle this very well.

Regards, Paul
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2009, 20:37   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington, DC
Boat: Columbia 41
Posts: 522
Permit me to offer a few musings on the subject.
1. Aluminum tube could be made to work. If you want a traditional look the tube would need to be tapered. This is not a rare thing since flag poles are tapered. If you look around you may find what you need right off the shelf.
2. The spreaders, assuming the mast needs them, would have to be located high enough that they are at the limit of the gaff jaw travel.
3. A fixed, conventional back stay would be in the way of the gaff swing. You will need running back stays. These are tightened with a tackle or highfield lever. Obviously this makes for quite a fire frill when short tacking. And an accidental gybe will be something to tell the grandghildren about.
4. Raising sail requires the gaff to be hoisted by the throat and peak halyards both at the same time. This is not too stressful on a small catboat, for example. It may be more than you want to try on a cruiser. Likewise, lowering the gaff to take a reef in the conditions where it is necessary will be a handfull.
5. For all that, a gaff sail sure is good looking. I think, as with most things on boats, it is a question of aesthetics versus practicality. If that image is strong in your head you will figure ways to make it work.
__________________
Sam Plan B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2009, 21:26   #6
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Wouldn't it just be easier to rig it as it was designed? I really do not see the simplicity in this affair with hoisting two lines at the same time. I can just hear the gakk jaw clanging against the mast as well as the hoops.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2009, 07:56   #7
Registered User
 
quidam's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cincinnati, OH (for now)
Boat: custom built 47' wooden trawler yacht
Posts: 71
Send a message via Skype™ to quidam
I rigged the Amphora as a gaff ketch ( you can see some pics of her in my albums). If you do it correctly the gaff wont bang around in calm conditions. I also prefer lacing the mainsail instead of hoops. Rigging the peak and throat so that you can pull them up together is simple. You dont have to have runners, but at the sacrafice of some forestay tension. I think its a great cruising rig, but you pretty much have to make everything yourself.
__________________
Quidam (pronounced "key-DAHM"; IPA: /kiːˈdɑːm/) means "a certain one" -or- "a certain thing", "an anonymous passerby" in Classical Latin
*****
One must be constantly on guard against advocates of the "Be reasonable and do it the hard and expensive way" school of thought.

That type of elitist thinking has ballooned the cost of boats, and cruising , far beyond what it need be, and beyond the reach of too many low income cruisers, for no benefit. --Brent Swain
quidam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2009, 08:17   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
My biggest concern about this concept is the possible neeed to put the mast in a different location to that designed for the boat in order to get the correct balance. I would also be concerned to get the correct mast head height. A Gaff is a much larger sail than a standard mainsail and much more pressure further aft.

Personally I like the look of the older boats with their gaff rig, just as I like the look of square riggers, and might consider one for coastal work, but the additional cordage and work would immediately cross it of the longer distance cruise list.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2009, 09:56   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington, DC
Boat: Columbia 41
Posts: 522
Talbot is right. A gaff main would have center of effort (CE) lower and further aft than a typical triangular main. The result will be excessive weather helm. One way to ballanced the rig (as in the old days) was to move the jib forward on a bowsprit. This returns the combined centers of effort back just aft of the center of lateral resistance (CLR). Of course there is a lot of added structure necessary for a happy bowsprit.

Then too, the mast could be moved forward. That means reworking the mast step, partners and relocating chain plates. There may also be some interior modifications needed if the mast comes down in the middle of that nice drop leaf table you just built.

Again, this is a question of aesthetics. If you want a gaff rig-look bad enough you will find a way through these issues.
__________________
Sam Plan B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2009, 14:14   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego
Boat: Fairweather Mariner/Westsail 39
Posts: 57
It sounds to me as though you already have a handle on the host of interelated factors of rig and sailplan. Back to your inquiry, I would definately consult with a naval architect. It shouldn't be that hard to find one - I dont think that Melbourne Smith, for instance, has ever designed a marconi rig in his life, but any competant naval architect should be able to draw a balanced gaff rig for your vessel, spec dimensions and strength of wire and hardware, etc. As to efficiency, depending on the degree to which you suscribe to the notion that full batten, deep roach, low aspect sails are efficient, as Steve Dashew argues, a gaff main with a gaff tops'l set above is in some respects similar in concept, with the gaff functioning in some respects as a single, very heavy duty. full batten. There is no reason why you could not manage the rig perfectly well short handed or single handed. Certainly you could use aluminmum for spars, or carbon fiber for that matter, but sailing vessels have been using trees (solid wood masts) for hundreds of years before such things existed. Its just a matter of personal taste but I'm not sure why you would intend to invoke a classic paradigm of aesthetics and technique and then attempt to execute with components that are glaringly anachronistic. I would worry that you might get the worst of both worlds.
__________________
squarerigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2009, 01:22   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oregon
Boat: Orca (Ingrid like) 38 "Legatia"
Posts: 2
Wow, Thank you to everybody's response to my post. The practical information and opinions are great. I have never used a sailing forum before. It's like picking the brain of the whole world or at least anybody who cares enough to help.

This gives me much to think about. I agree it would be very practical and easier to take the original sail plan to a rigger and say do this please. I may in the end do that. However the comment about having to make all the rigging components myself has me wringing my creative hands with anticipation. The concept of simplicity isn't based on ease of raising or lowering the sail or not having a running backstay. I think of it in terms of replacing, repairing, manufacturing the rig. I hear that gaff rig stays/shrouds are not tuned to exact high tension standards with special swaged on turnbuckle fittings that require a rigger to replace or repair. The wooden mast tends to also appeal to not just aesthetics but self manufacturing or repair. But an aluminum tube with riveted on tangs and fittings may be an ok DIY thing to do. I am building this boat and would also like to build the rig so it is not a mysterious black box (or pole) I am afraid to work on or fix. Is this a bad idea?

I am still very conflicted. Many of the comments mirror what is going through my mind. Mixing classic with new materials in a incongruent manner and ending up with a mess. Sailing itself is not just a practical way to get from here to there but it is artistic and romantic in nature. Tidy clean fiberglass, aluminum, stainless steel, mainsails that furl in the mast contrasted with wood, bronze, reef points. I am choosing to go with more of the latter but to what degree do I take it? I am not building a replica of Spray or a tall ship. When I see a bunch of sailboats in a bay or on the horizon my heart jumps if I see a gaffer. I realize this is a question I will answer for myself but any input helps.

I hope the question of center of gravity and weather helm is easily answered with a longer bowsprit. The maststep is already built in and I do not really want to change the location. The maststep is further aft because it is designed as a true cutter not just a sloop with two jibs. The design also called for two bits for a bowsprit to ride between and they are also already in place. Hopefully a naval architect could design ether a long retractable bowsprit or the more modern and simpler fixed sprit.

Which brings me to my last question. I am building this boat in the boonies. It is a 3 hour drive to the sailboat unfriendly Oregon coast and 7 hours to the San Francisco bay area. Also as you can tell I am not a computer afficionado. So I don't know or know how to contact any naval architects or designers. I did try to search and contact a couple online but recieved no response. So if anyone out there knows specific names with numbers or addresses please let me know.

Again thanks for all your other wonderful responses
__________________
Legatia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2009, 09:26   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,466
Hmmm,
If the mast step is already in place, then with the gaff sail the CE will certainly be aft of the original desgns location, with the attendant weather helm issues. Moving the jib forward on a sprit might well help balance it, but this means that sailing without the jib (something that is sometimes useful) causes BIG balance problems. ONe of the (sometimes) advantages of the gaff main is that the CE stays further aft when reefing. This can help with keeping the bow up into the wind when heaving to, but in your case might just make the boat unmanageable . I guess that what I'm getting at is that you risk screwing up the sailing characteristics of a well-proven design. I have no problem with your ideas of what will work for you aesthetically and maintenance-wise, but I reckon that you should have considered these factors when you chose the original design.

Bob Perry is a frequent contributor to this forum, and might be a good source of professional advice for you. He has been most generous with his expertise in the past.

Good luck with your ambitious project!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Gladstone Qld Oz
__________________
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2009, 09:51   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington, DC
Boat: Columbia 41
Posts: 522
The one and only Tom Colvin is still alive and kicking. I have exchanged a few emails with him asking for advice on this and that. His website is:

Colvin Site Index

He is a no nonsense naval architect with many thousands of sea miles behind him.
__________________
Sam Plan B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2009, 10:10   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego
Boat: Fairweather Mariner/Westsail 39
Posts: 57
Several years ago a good friend changed the rig on his 1940's era 45' Angleman ketch from a marconi main to a gaff main, retaining a marconi mizzen. The alteration was a success in that the boat's already classic appearence became even more so (which was the point), her pointing ability was not spectacular before and did not decrease any, the mast stepped in the same place, she retained her good balance and was easy to steer before and after the change, the calculations for stability abided the change and in use she seemed if anything slightly more stiff, was no more difficult to handle, appropriate fittings and hardware were readily available, and the spars were built by his talented son who later replaced replaced the bowsprit and topmast lost in a collision (the bowsprit protruded too far out into the marina fairway it seems). Melbourne Smith drew the sail and rigging plans. One source of ontact information for him is Melbourne Smith. Good luck.
__________________
squarerigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2009, 10:12   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego
Boat: Fairweather Mariner/Westsail 39
Posts: 57
Sorry, somehow that contact information re Melbourne Smith didn't make it through my last post. Here it is again Melbourne Smith. Note that it's for his ship artwork, not his design, but it should each him.
__________________

__________________
squarerigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ingrid 38? clausont Monohull Sailboats 23 08-06-2009 06:46
Airex Cored Ingrid? clausont Construction, Maintenance & Refit 1 30-10-2008 23:34
First Coastal Passage - Ingrid 38 clausont Monohull Sailboats 13 05-10-2008 19:34
Bi-rig freetime Multihull Sailboats 44 23-09-2008 23:08
FOR SALE: Angelman-Ward KETCH gaff rigged lobodemar61 Classifieds Archive 0 10-07-2008 21:14



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.