furling system advice (yes or no)

[hatteras53]

GRATEFUL update to all those KIND shipmates have taken the time to advise us. We meet with the rigger yesterday after a 9 hour drive and he was beyond honest and respectful. He gave us 3 hours and did not steer us one way or the other on the furling. The standing rigging is 38 years old and the running about 20. Trust me, it is all toast. The forward sail is only about 200 s.f. and it is temping to have no furling. BUT it would hurt the resale value of the boat and truly be more difficult to take down in high winds (Murphy is always around the corner we know). Most of you have KINDLY said just get it. Yes 22k with or 17k without is pricey. We asked another rigger his price and he was only 2-3k less and we must move the boat 300 miles round trip with no available help from family and friends since they are all in Manila. By the time we pay for hired help there is not a lot of savings. The rigger is willing to do some other items at no charge to us too. We have no choice but to have someone do the rigging. It absolutely can not be used or sold in the present condition. I am stunned and speechless over all of the helpful comments from you. The 17-22k will not break us financially but it is a shock to us after all of the bad work/overcharges from the previous boatyard. Yes the price is high but I don't think we are being swindled. Wish that some of you were in the area because of your skill. I would pay you to help us instead as fellow boaters. THANK YOU for your kindness to us.

[JPA Cate]

And thank you, for your thanks, as well.

Good luck with it all.

Ann

[hatteras53]

Hi Ann and all, I find that having gratitude and thanks is a good condition of mind and heart to possess. There are others who always have it better or worse than ourselves. For example, having to decide on a furling system (yes or no) is not so bad as do we have enough money for food this week ?
Thank you all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by hatteras53

Hi Ann and all, I find that having gratitude and thanks is a good condition of mind and heart to possess. There are others who always have it better or worse than ourselves. For example, having to decide on a furling system (yes or no) is not so bad as do we have enough money for food this week ?
Thank you all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the update, so good to hear rather than being left wondering.

[Vagekennis]

Having had several systems we now have mast infurl for 10+ years plus furling genoa and furling assym. I would definitely not go back to a system where you need to hoist the sails. You have two masts, so even more so, keep it convenient. The older you get the more the hoisting can be a burden, besides that the systems have evolved and are pretty good and reliable. Its most impirtant to me that under bad conditions averything works and one person can sail the boat. We have a 50" and single handed is no problem given the set up.
I think this brings additional safety.

Yes in mast furl can jam if incorrectly handled (we never had that in 10+ years of regular sailing) but other systems also have their perks. Ideally you would choose a boom furl system as you can hoist that under any wind angle. But it might even get you to a higher price.

Success

Walter

[u4ea32]

My Olson 40 has a 50' mast. I've just done a complete (!) refit.

I removed the headsail furler. I use hanks instead on a 95% jib.

The jib is carbon, fully battened, the hanks are soft hanks, and the headstay is dyneema.

The sail is so light, and the friction of the hanks on the headstay is so low, that the sail can almost be tossed to the top of the mast: easily hoisted by very weak people without a winch, using the winch only to provide the final few inches of tension.

Dropping the sail is also very easy: head to wind, release the halyard, and it falls to the deck.

My jib is fully battened, which means when the sheet is released for whatever reason, the jib barely moves. This makes an enormous difference for safety: a flogging headsail whipping sheets around is dangerous!

Once dropped on deck, one sail tie is sufficient to keep it all under control. The battens contribute to this, but the carbon sail cloth helps enormously. Folding the sail with the sail still hanked on is very easy. Again, the carbon sail cloth makes this amazingly easy because it is very light and easier to handle than dacron or mylar or kevlar or vectran jibs, all of which are at least twice the weight and much harder to handle. The difference is very large.

I currently use a sausage bag, but am having a proper sail cover made so the jib can remain hanked to the headstay.

My main is also carbon, fully battened, and I use a StrongTrack. Same results as with the jib: very light and low friction so super easy to hoist, drop, and fold. Folding is so easy it almost seems like magic. Full battens make the sail very benign. The main weighs about a third as much as my older dacron and kevlar sails. A 10 year old girl can hoist the main without a winch.

I would recommend going dyneema instead of steel for the standing rigging. Just one toggle on the bottom of a shroud costs about as much as the dyneema stay. If you look at your bill of materials, I expect that most of the money goes for those bits and not the stays themselves. Dyneema gets rid of all those expensive bits. Dyneema is super easy to splice, its cheap, its light, its inspectable. With steel, you know its bad when the mast got over the side. With dyneema, you can tell by looking at it.

[TrentePieds]

Now THAT is what I call intelligent use of modern materials :-)!!

Please Neptune that we have now passed through the Dark Middle Ages of roller furling sails, and come out on the other side!!

I'll take this to heart and incorporate it in my thinking about an "ideal" cruiser for the Salish Sea — a vessel blessedly devoid of influence from racing rules, a pure cruiser, not a bastard racer/cruiser :-)

TrentePIeds

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by u4ea32

My Olson 40 has a 50' mast. I've just done a complete (!) refit.

I removed the headsail furler. I use hanks instead on a 95% jib.

The jib is carbon, fully battened, the hanks are soft hanks, and the headstay is dyneema.

The sail is so light, and the friction of the hanks on the headstay is so low, that the sail can almost be tossed to the top of the mast: easily hoisted by very weak people without a winch, using the winch only to provide the final few inches of tension.

Dropping the sail is also very easy: head to wind, release the halyard, and it falls to the deck.

My jib is fully battened, which means when the sheet is released for whatever reason, the jib barely moves. This makes an enormous difference for safety: a flogging headsail whipping sheets around is dangerous!

Once dropped on deck, one sail tie is sufficient to keep it all under control. The battens contribute to this, but the carbon sail cloth helps enormously. Folding the sail with the sail still hanked on is very easy. Again, the carbon sail cloth makes this amazingly easy because it is very light and easier to handle than dacron or mylar or kevlar or vectran jibs, all of which are at least twice the weight and much harder to handle. The difference is very large.

I currently use a sausage bag, but am having a proper sail cover made so the jib can remain hanked to the headstay.

My main is also carbon, fully battened, and I use a StrongTrack. Same results as with the jib: very light and low friction so super easy to hoist, drop, and fold. Folding is so easy it almost seems like magic. Full battens make the sail very benign. The main weighs about a third as much as my older dacron and kevlar sails. A 10 year old girl can hoist the main without a winch.

I would recommend going dyneema instead of steel for the standing rigging. Just one toggle on the bottom of a shroud costs about as much as the dyneema stay. If you look at your bill of materials, I expect that most of the money goes for those bits and not the stays themselves. Dyneema gets rid of all those expensive bits. Dyneema is super easy to splice, its cheap, its light, its inspectable. With steel, you know its bad when the mast got over the side. With dyneema, you can tell by looking at it.

I think this is brilliant, out of the box thinking. You are a leader, not a follower.

Two comments, I doubt that the carbon laminate (or membrane) sails will have the longevity for use on a cruising boat and I would worry about a dynema failure (still not sure I trust it, not the strength, just the possibility of wear or chafe).

How do you change headsails? And does your main have reef points? (how many)

[u4ea32]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think this is brilliant, out of the box thinking. You are a leader, not a follower.

Two comments, I doubt that the carbon laminate (or membrane) sails will have the longevity for use on a cruising boat and I would worry about a dynema failure (still not sure I trust it, not the strength, just the possibility of wear or chafe).

How do you change headsails? And does your main have reef points? (how many)

Thanks, Wingsail. I get a lot of good ideas from your posts. I am hoping to meet you in Mexico in the not too distant future.

My brother used to own a Ranger 37 one ton named Wings. I still love that name for a sailboat, and I have always been fond of Peterson designs like yours.

This is all pretty experimental. But it is working even better than I expected!

My sails are made from Dimension Polyant GPX and GPL sailcloth. This stuff seems to stand up quite well for many years. It seems to last much better than other mylar sails, especially string sails. Many sailmakers prefer this material. The observed longevity has been attributed to a couple of things: the bigger bundles of carbon and spectra mean the load gets spread through those fibers well, and the high pressure used during manufacturing ensures the fibers stay where they should be.

I think longevity should consider how long the sails retain their airfoil shape, rather than just retaining their triangular outline. Many of my friends have dacron sails that still exist, but that are so full that pointing is slow and hard, and where the draft control is long gone, so helm is increased.

I am learning about Dyneema. It can be cut under load. In fact, I can only cut it under load! So that is a concern, and something I will continue to watch. At least, it is very easy to watch!

I don't intend to have to change headsails, just shift from jib to staysl if it gets windy, or change to screecher for reaching, and a-spin for running.

My sail plan: a fully battened main with a single reef; a non-overlapping fully battened jib hanked on the forestay; a non-overlapping fully attend staysail on its own inner forestay; a top-down roller furling screecher to the sprit; a top down roller furling spinnaker on the sprit. Only the main and jib constructed so far.

I messed up on the measurements for the sprit fitting on the bow, so I need to fabricate a new one. That is delaying the sprit, screecher, and spinnaker.

I am still messing around with the v-berth and stays tack fitting, delaying the staysl.

I have a dozen or more sails in my garage, but I don't expect to ever put them aboard again.

[u4ea32]

6 knots in 6 knots of wind

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by u4ea32

Thanks, Wingsail. I get a lot of good ideas from your posts. I am hoping to meet you in Mexico in the not too distant future.

My brother used to own a Ranger 37 one ton named Wings. I still love that name for a sailboat, and I have always been fond of Peterson designs like yours.

This is all pretty experimental. But it is working even better than I expected!

My sails are made from Dimension Polyant GPX and GPL sailcloth. This stuff seems to stand up quite well for many years. It seems to last much better than other mylar sails, especially string sails. Many sailmakers prefer this material. The observed longevity has been attributed to a couple of things: the bigger bundles of carbon and spectra mean the load gets spread through those fibers well, and the high pressure used during manufacturing ensures the fibers stay where they should be.

I think longevity should consider how long the sails retain their airfoil shape, rather than just retaining their triangular outline. Many of my friends have dacron sails that still exist, but that are so full that pointing is slow and hard, and where the draft control is long gone, so helm is increased.

I am learning about Dyneema. It can be cut under load. In fact, I can only cut it under load! So that is a concern, and something I will continue to watch. At least, it is very easy to watch!

I don't intend to have to change headsails, just shift from jib to staysl if it gets windy, or change to screecher for reaching, and a-spin for running.

My sail plan: a fully battened main with a single reef; a non-overlapping fully battened jib hanked on the forestay; a non-overlapping fully attend staysail on its own inner forestay; a top-down roller furling screecher to the sprit; a top down roller furling spinnaker on the sprit. Only the main and jib constructed so far.

I messed up on the measurements for the sprit fitting on the bow, so I need to fabricate a new one. That is delaying the sprit, screecher, and spinnaker.

I am still messing around with the v-berth and stays tack fitting, delaying the staysl.

I have a dozen or more sails in my garage, but I don't expect to ever put them aboard again.

Don't get rid of your old sails. If you don't take some spares with you (folded carefully they don't take that much room, a main, jib and kite) at least leave them where you can get them shipped from.

We cruise with dacron sails, some older, and keep the carbon sails for racing.

Love to meet up with you in Mexico. We are based in La Cruz.

Fred

[u4ea32]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Don't get rid of your old sails. If you don't take some spares with you (folded carefully they don't take that much room, a main, jib and kite) at least leave them where you can get them shipped from.

We cruise with dacron sails, some older, and keep the carbon sails for racing.

Love to meet up with you in Mexico. We are based in La Cruz.

Fred

Fred, good advice on the sails.

I am not sure we are going to Puerto Vallarta this year or next, but am looking forward to playing with you and others: sure sounds fun!

-- David

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by u4ea32

. . . My sails are made from Dimension Polyant GPX and GPL sailcloth. This stuff seems to stand up quite well for many years. It seems to last much better than other mylar sails, especially string sails. Many sailmakers prefer this material. The observed longevity has been attributed to a couple of things: the bigger bundles of carbon and spectra mean the load gets spread through those fibers well, and the high pressure used during manufacturing ensures the fibers stay where they should be.

When I ordered new sails five years ago, I decided to put aside all my prejudices and rely on a good sailmaker to guide me in choice of material and design. The only firmly pre-conceived idea I had was that I wanted a blade jib as an alternative to the 120% yankee for upwind work.


I ended up with carbon/technora laminate material from Bainbridge for all the sails. I had also thought that carbon is fragile and is quickly destroyed by flogging, but my sailmaker told me that this particular material is phenomenally durable and that I wouldn't regret it and he was right. I've got about 15,000 very hard miles on them now (I had reckoned the useful life to be about 10,000 miles) and they are, incredibly, not showing the slightest sign of wear, no mildew, no delamination, no signs of chafe, and have absolutely the same shape they had when new.



One shouldn't confuse racing sails made of carbon with the new cruising laminates. Mine are covered with finely woven Dyneema taffeta on both sides, which seems to be virtually chafe-proof. They were hella expensive but worth every penny.



If you like to sail, then the best money you can possibly spend on your boats, is on good sails. What is really cool is that laminate technology has now advanced so that the total life expectancy (not just the "good airfoil shape" life expectancy) no longer seems to be worse than polyester.

Originally Posted by u4ea32

I think longevity should consider how long the sails retain their airfoil shape, rather than just retaining their triangular outline. Many of my friends have dacron sails that still exist, but that are so full that pointing is slow and hard, and where the draft control is long gone, so helm is increased.. . .

+ 1 000 000


I will never have a woven sail on any boat of mine, ever again.

[u4ea32]

The hanked on jib uses these soft hanks (blue) on a dyneema headstay. The main is on a StrongTrack. You can see everything folds nicely. I attest they fold easily.

[Ostinato]

Originally Posted by hatteras53

AGAIN, my thanks to all AND especially to TRENTEPIEDS for taking the time to help me. My 1981 Nauticat came with a forward mast furling system. The masts/booms/turn buckles are good. All of the running/standing rigging needs to be replaced. Several fellow sailors and another rigger that saw the boat all told me this in the past. All the rigging is very old and some of it may even be original. When we bought the boat in 2011 the surveyor failed to tell us this. It was on the hard for 6 years while all the other work was accomplished-and paid for in some cases 2 times. As mentioned, another boater there is suing the boatyard for 375k. We are finally gone and currently our boat is in Deltaville, Va. at Chesapeake Boat Works. The rigger is Charlie Morgan of Bay Area Rigging Co. He and the owners of Chesapeake all seem honest and standup men....

How has your experience been with Bay Area Rigging's work since it was done? Any problems surface and if so, what was Bay Area's response?