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Old 13-05-2016, 06:42   #1
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Furling System

hi I have a hood furling system and I managed to pull the wire out of the drum which was my fault not releasing the sail which was very stupid I have to admit. the drum has some grub screws which I have removed but that hasn't helped me get any further.if anyone could offer any advice on how I can get inside the drum and reattach the line It would be very much appreciated have attached some photos.
thanks
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Old 13-05-2016, 07:29   #2
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Re: furling system

You can look for a service manual online, & or contact the company. Ditto on some of the spar makers who carry such furlers. In addition to trying, repeated soaks with penetrating oil on things. However, given the level of corrosion present, there is a "Plan B".

If you do a few turns of a "Constrictor Knot" (the beginnings of a Turk's Head) around the drum, using some line cover (jacket) for this. Plus a few wraps of the same around the drum, as the tail of the Constrictor. It should give you enough friction on the drum, for you to attach a furling line to, & have things up & running again.
And if not, you've lost but $2 worth of line cover, & a bit of time.

You can even use a jacketed Dyneema line for this (Dacron would work too), with the core stripped out of the first couple of wraps around the drum. And then locked to the cover, directly aft of that. Always leaving a couple of wraps of the cored line on the drum, there after.
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Old 13-05-2016, 07:39   #3
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Re: furling system

thanks great advice like plan b if I cant get the thing apart thanks again
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Old 13-05-2016, 08:34   #4
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Re: furling system

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
You can look for a service manual online, & or contact the company. Ditto on some of the spar makers who carry such furlers. In addition to trying, repeated soaks with penetrating oil on things. However, given the level of corrosion present, there is a "Plan B".

If you do a few turns of a "Constrictor Knot" (the beginnings of a Turk's Head) around the drum, using some line cover (jacket) for this. Plus a few wraps of the same around the drum, as the tail of the Constrictor. It should give you enough friction on the drum, for you to attach a furling line to, & have things up & running again.
And if not, you've lost but $2 worth of line cover, & a bit of time.

You can even use a jacketed Dyneema line for this (Dacron would work too), with the core stripped out of the first couple of wraps around the drum. And then locked to the cover, directly aft of that. Always leaving a couple of wraps of the cored line on the drum, there after.

It's risky to have the end of the furling line very firmly attached to the drum. If you forget again -- and it happens to everyone -- you can rip the drum apart or break the furling line, which can cause a lot of destruction including destroying the sail. I did this once in a storm in the first months of owning my present boat, and would never ever ever want to repeat the experience of having a broken furling line in a violent gale.


Selden recommend cutting out the last inch or two of CORE of the furling line, and clamping in just the COVER. Not the other way around. So that this is a weak link which will come loose if you mis-operate the furler.

I think this is a good recommendation, personally. The attachment of the end of the furling line doesn't do anything once you have a couple of wraps on. I would not clamp in the core of the furling line, especially not a Dyneema core, but that's JMHO.
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Old 13-05-2016, 09:16   #5
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Re: furling system

Hi thanks for the info I have wire line.
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Old 13-05-2016, 09:29   #6
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Re: furling system

BTW . . .harken uses a pretty simple way to attach the end of the line to the drum. They drill a hole in the top of the drum (see hole in picture below), and you lead the furling line up thru the hole and put a stopper knot on it.

hole

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stopper knot showing

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Old 13-05-2016, 09:44   #7
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Re: furling system

great that's what I will do simple is always the best I wish I would have thought of it.i was thinking about drilling holes in the side but not in the top.
somebody kindly sent me a manual which is amazing buti have a feeling I wont be able to get it apart and I remember someone doing a bit of a bodge job by welding.
thanks everyone for the advice
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Old 13-05-2016, 16:26   #8
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Re: furling system

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
BTW . . .harken uses a pretty simple way to attach the end of the line to the drum. They drill a hole in the top of the drum (see hole in picture below), and you lead the furling line up thru the hole and put a stopper knot on it.

hole
Attachment 124258

stopper knot showing
Attachment 124259
:thumbup::thumbup: simple solutions!

Make the line long enough so there is no way you will pull it all out, or run out of furling line in a blow when the sail furls up much tighter.

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Old 14-05-2016, 17:26   #9
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Re: furling system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It's risky to have the end of the furling line very firmly attached to the drum.
Where is the risk, & why, in having the furling line, firmly attached to the drum? As the furling line is what has to oppose the pull of the jib sheet on the sail, when the sail when it's partially furled.
Thus the loads on the furling line can be quite high, & It NEEDS to be securely attached to the furler.

If you forget again -- and it happens to everyone -- you can rip the drum apart or break the furling line, which can cause a lot of destruction including destroying the sail. I did this once in a storm in the first months of owning my present boat, and would never ever ever want to repeat the experience of having a broken furling line in a violent gale.
How you might rip the drum apart I'm uncertain. Especially if you always have several wraps of the furling line, wrapped around the drum. Which would inherently serve to keep a 2-part drum, together.

Regarding breaking the furling line. I've stated, many, many times in the past, the importance of having a Very strong furling line. With the math behind such, explaining the why of it's importance. Including to you, on a couple of occasions.
And yes, it's Critical to have a strong furling line, overly so. As if it breaks; the wind can destroy the flogging sail, cause you to be unable to control the boat due to having too much sail up in high winds, or for the sail to even bring down the rig.

Selden recommend cutting out the last inch or two of CORE of the furling line, and clamping in just the COVER. Not the other way around. So that this is a weak link which will come loose if you mis-operate the furler.
I can't speak to Selden's recommendations. As I cannot figure out any logic behind such a way of rigging things, regarding how it might "protect" the furler. Further explanation on such would be required.

In my post, I'm suggesting using a Constrictor Knot, & several wraps of the Cover, to generate enough friction on the furler's drum. So that it's possible to operate it, without re-threading the wire; as originally posted by the OP.
And that once there are a couple of wraps of the cover on the drum, Then, you lock the cover & core together. So that you then have the full strength of the line with which to operate the furler.

The suggestion for a Dyneema based line, being because, IMO, it's wise to have a very strong line, serving to control one's furler. As commented on above.

The (frictional) technique was one taught to me by Brion Toss, for using line cover to generate immense amounts of friction, in order to pull on things which are otherwise very difficult to grip.
Basically, you want to use variations on the principle behind a Prussik Knot. Which climbers use as ascenders/descenders, & as line stoppers; which work based on friction.
It's an old & very proven technique.

I think this is a good recommendation, personally. The attachment of the end of the furling line doesn't do anything once you have a couple of wraps on. I would not clamp in the core of the furling line, especially not a Dyneema core, but that's JMHO.
Where is there any mention of clamping of the line's core? And wherein lies the problem with doing so with Dyneema? Aside from it's inherent slipperiness.
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Old 14-05-2016, 17:32   #10
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Re: furling system

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
BTW . . .harken uses a pretty simple way to attach the end of the line to the drum. They drill a hole in the top of the drum (see hole in picture below), and you lead the furling line up thru the hole and put a stopper knot on it.

hole
Attachment 124258

stopper knot showing
Attachment 124259
Makes sense. Ditto on Snowpetrel's comments!
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Old 14-05-2016, 18:40   #11
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Re: furling system

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
I think Dockheads point here http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/....php?p=2119233 in a similar thread about the dangers of overwinching a furler are valid, especially on a big boat with power winches. A moments inattention and BANG!

I don't think making the attachment to the furler a weak link is a good solution overall. The risk of the whole shebang unfurling if the line pulls out is too high, of course it will happen in the worst conditions, 50 knot squall, land to leeward... and unless you have a jedi knight aboard to whisk the sail down into the saillocker in a flash things are about to get fun!

Only solutions I can think of are to have lots of extra wraps and maybe strip the cover, or otherwise mark the furling line at a point where you need to stop winching. I have used electric winches on furlers, its seductively easy, but potentially very dangerous. On a big boat (60 plus foot)with a big genoa, in a decent wind with land to leeward it can sometimes be the only way to get the bastard in quickly. But where possible I now try to run off, and blanket the genoa and pull it in by hand, with a few turns around a winch to control it.

Having studied the loads on the drum due to the furling line pulling at 90 degrees to the stay I can really see the advantages of the electric and hydraulic systems for big boats (provided they have a manual system). These systems put pure torque on the system, no radial load. When the furlex on a big 62 foot charter boat I sail failed due to the lower bearings collapsing it was still easy to turn it by hand with a short stick, but impossible to rotate with the rope.
I posted this over on the furling line thread by mistake.
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Old 14-05-2016, 21:25   #12
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Re: furling system

The comment by Selden, perhaps makes a bit more sense, if one is using a powered winch to adjust one's furler. As yielded up via this thread Furling Lines
My opinions on using a power winch for such are another matter entirely.
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Old 14-05-2016, 22:14   #13
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Re: Furling System

Another option, say on a seldon system would be to add a safety strop. Have the pull out system but add a meter of small spectra to it so if the worst happens the whole lot doesnt unwrap completely.

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Old 15-05-2016, 06:29   #14
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Re: Furling System

So then, a "fuse", as it were. Where the poly jacket blows first, letting you know that you've reached the end of the furling line, via a loud bang, when it breaks. And then the load transfers onto the Spectra bit, so that you still have a line connected to the furling system.

Such setups are used on Big racing boats, where the loads are high (as in, in tons). So the theory is sound. AKA, Good suggestion

Snowpetrel what follows isn't at all directed at you. Your wisdom is held in high reverence by me.
My original befuddlement on the issue still stands. That being, why use powered winches on such a line to begin with? I mean it's not as if they're even needed for genoas on boats of size, so I can't see the requirement for them on such a boat's furling line.
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Old 15-05-2016, 07:32   #15
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Re: furling system

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Where is the risk, & why, in having the furling line, firmly attached to the drum? As the furling line is what has to oppose the pull of the jib sheet on the sail, when the sail when it's partially furled.
Thus the loads on the furling line can be quite high, & It NEEDS to be securely attached to the furler.

If you forget again -- and it happens to everyone -- you can rip the drum apart or break the furling line, which can cause a lot of destruction including destroying the sail. I did this once in a storm in the first months of owning my present boat, and would never ever ever want to repeat the experience of having a broken furling line in a violent gale.
How you might rip the drum apart I'm uncertain. Especially if you always have several wraps of the furling line, wrapped around the drum. Which would inherently serve to keep a 2-part drum, together.

Regarding breaking the furling line. I've stated, many, many times in the past, the importance of having a Very strong furling line. With the math behind such, explaining the why of it's importance. Including to you, on a couple of occasions.
And yes, it's Critical to have a strong furling line, overly so. As if it breaks; the wind can destroy the flogging sail, cause you to be unable to control the boat due to having too much sail up in high winds, or for the sail to even bring down the rig.

Selden recommend cutting out the last inch or two of CORE of the furling line, and clamping in just the COVER. Not the other way around. So that this is a weak link which will come loose if you mis-operate the furler.
I can't speak to Selden's recommendations. As I cannot figure out any logic behind such a way of rigging things, regarding how it might "protect" the furler. Further explanation on such would be required.

In my post, I'm suggesting using a Constrictor Knot, & several wraps of the Cover, to generate enough friction on the furler's drum. So that it's possible to operate it, without re-threading the wire; as originally posted by the OP.
And that once there are a couple of wraps of the cover on the drum, Then, you lock the cover & core together. So that you then have the full strength of the line with which to operate the furler.

The suggestion for a Dyneema based line, being because, IMO, it's wise to have a very strong line, serving to control one's furler. As commented on above.

The (frictional) technique was one taught to me by Brion Toss, for using line cover to generate immense amounts of friction, in order to pull on things which are otherwise very difficult to grip.
Basically, you want to use variations on the principle behind a Prussik Knot. Which climbers use as ascenders/descenders, & as line stoppers; which work based on friction.
It's an old & very proven technique.

I think this is a good recommendation, personally. The attachment of the end of the furling line doesn't do anything once you have a couple of wraps on. I would not clamp in the core of the furling line, especially not a Dyneema core, but that's JMHO.
Where is there any mention of clamping of the line's core? And wherein lies the problem with doing so with Dyneema? Aside from it's inherent slipperiness.

The danger is attaching the line firmly to the drum is that you can break gear, or the line, when you reach the end of it, if you're using a winch.

That is why Selden specifically recommends clamping the cover with the core stripped out -- to make a weak link.

You do not need the end firmly attached. Once there are a few wraps on the drum, there is more friction than the line has strength. Same principle as splicing. The end attachment plays no role once there are a few wraps on. So there is absolutely no reason in the world to firmly attach the end, because once the line has run all the way out, it's no longer turning the drum, and you can't achieve anything by pulling it further anyway.

The Selden engineers are no fools. If you pull the furling line all the way out to the end, and continue pulling it hard enough to break or pull out the cover, then it's just a few more inches to breaking the furler or the line anyway, or God forbid, the forestay, if the furling line is firmly attached. So once you get that far, it's just a question of losing the furling line harmlessly, or losing it destructively. The Selden way is definitely correct, allowing this all too common situation to happen harmlessly (as harmlessly as possible -- obviously you've got a whole thing when the sail comes out in a blow, but you would have that anyway).
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