Furling staysails

[steve.garlick]

Hi all,

We've just invested in new sails and new standing rigging (still in sticker shock). Our current upwind rig is Yankee, staysail and main. Our reefing regime is reef Yankee, 1st reef main, furl Yankee, 2nd reef main, staysail to storm stAysail, try sail.

I know the argument for yanked on staysails, we carry 3 staysails. However, I'm thinking about putting a heavy duty furler (Furlex 300S) on the staysail, so that we could furl the staysail down to storm staysail size. Save the hassle of hanking and unhanking in 40 knot winds,

We are a husband - wife crew in their late 50's. Boat is a Bowman 40, a genuine cutter.

What do you all think? Any suggestions on furlers? Staysail design, maybe have it. It flatter?

Thanks,

Steve

[islandplanet]

I'd do a foil-less furler. Last thing I want cluttering up the foretriangle is a permanently installed stay and foil.

[Dockhead]

Our cutter is rigged with a beefy 400S Furlex for the staysail. It's the way to go IMHO, for one reason - when the weather gets snotty and you want to get the boat into a defensive posture sailing on the staysail with the Yankee rolled away, you do NOT want to be futzing around on the foredeck. Being able to do it all from the cockpit may be literally a lifesaver.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Our cutter is rigged with a beefy 400S Furlex for the staysail. It's the way to go IMHO, for one reason - when the weather gets snotty and you want to get the boat into a defensive posture sailing on the staysail with the Yankee rolled away, you do NOT want to be futzing around on the foredeck. Being able to do it all from the cockpit may be literally a lifesaver.

What I like about the foil-less option is that you can leave it in place on a passage or when you're expecting snotty weather. So it's really the best of both worlds. The majority of the time it can be stowed out of the way and not interfere with the genoa or require you to furl partly to tack.

If I felt I had to do everything from the cockpit to be safe, I'd buy a trawler. When things really hit the fan requiring you to go on deck, you have to be able to manage it. For instance, your furling line breaks and you have to drop the genoa on deck. Or if you have electric furling like we do, and the motor craps out necessitating manual operation with an endless line, it's a trip forward. There are many things that can require presence on deck. If you have in-mast furling and something goes awry, once again it's time to be on deck.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

. . . . .furlex . . .. .

Originally Posted by islandplanet

. . . . . foil-less . . . .

I think you are both right, and the key question is the balance between passage making vs coastal. I would lean toward dockhead's solution for a lot of passagemaking (when you generally don't tack, or gybe, or sail upwind all that much), while lean toward island's if the mix was more coastal.

[Jim Cate]

This is a thorny problem IMO.

When we bought Insatiable II she had a removable inner (Solent) stay and a hank on staysail (or #4 jib if you want to be more precise). There was a Highfield lever to tension it... all worked well, but we found that getting the Highfield engaged and the wire all set and then hanking on the sail was often a handful in rough conditions. As it happened, the sail was pretty well shot and a new one in the works. So, considering that Ann and I are not youngies, and that besides that we are inherently lazy, we decided to put a furler on for that stay and sail, but we kept the Highfield.

The results: If the staysail furler is set, we have to furl the genoa to tack it, and that is a real PITA. We can remove the staysail and secure the whole mess near the mast, clearing the foredeck, and it isn't too hard, but then reattaching the stay and tensioning the lever is very challenging if there is much motion. The mass of the furled sail whipping back and forth as the boat rolls makes it nearly impossible to accomplish for one person, and bloody difficult with two. Consequently we seldom remove the sail and have to live with furling the genoa.

The good news is that we get a lot more use out of the staysail than before, and that we are not tempted to use the genoa rolled halfway up in stronger winds. Better performance and better sail life result from this, and over all that makes it worthwhile for us.

YMMV, and IP's solution may be the better one for you.

Cheers,

Jim

[islandplanet]

The other advantage of using a foil-less furler is that it can be used with other sails.

[Tar34]

I used a wire luffed staysail on a 30 ft cutter I used to sail. Eliminated the need to hank to a stay. With todays modern fibers, Dyneema line, there would be minimal stretch, the strength of SS and no hassle with hanks. Just hoist and tension. To stow, just drop on deck and stow. Not saying it's your cup of tea, just an alternative. You could have your existing sails easily converted too.

[Cheechako]

The convenience would be nice I suppose in lieu of needing to change sails. By the time you get two furling units and the sails stored aloft... that's alot of weight. 100lbs 20 ft up is like loosing a ton of ballast.... more or less....
If you are at 40 knots it seems you might know ahead of time to expect more weather and have a chance to change out early...?

[steve.garlick]

We have a double head stay (also detachable) so we usually furl the Yankee to tack anyway. The baby stay is also detachable, but we will loose the highfield with the furler.

We went with a Furlex 200S ( couldn't afford larger), foam luff and offshore finishing for the staysail. we also upgraded to UK Sails premium Dacron for the staysail AP410.

Question now is should we have our smaller stay sails converted to a luff tape.

The new Yankee and mainsail are CXT cruise laminate with a TRI radial cut. Would have loved tape drive but couldn't stretch the budget.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

The other advantage of using a foil-less furler is that it can be used with other sails.

I agree… I have this working self-tending staysail if I am really trying to maximize sail area plus 2 bullet proof storm jibs for heavy weather.

Takes about 5 minutes to change, which you do long before you need the storm jib.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

What I like about the foil-less option is that you can leave it in place on a passage or when you're expecting snotty weather. So it's really the best of both worlds. The majority of the time it can be stowed out of the way and not interfere with the genoa or require you to furl partly to tack.

If I felt I had to do everything from the cockpit to be safe, I'd buy a trawler. When things really hit the fan requiring you to go on deck, you have to be able to manage it. For instance, your furling line breaks and you have to drop the genoa on deck. Or if you have electric furling like we do, and the motor craps out necessitating manual operation with an endless line, it's a trip forward. There are many things that can require presence on deck. If you have in-mast furling and something goes awry, once again it's time to be on deck.

All true, but doesn't really contradict the idea that designing the rig to require less time on the foredeck in bad weather is a good thing . No one said you can avoid being on the foredeck altogether.

The difference between foil less and with foil really comes down to whether you're a sloop or a cutter. If you're a sloop with a deck-sweeping genoa, the you'll want to get the inner forestay out of the way for tacking. So a removable stay with Hyfield lever is a good way to do it. A foil-less furler is good here. A cutter with a high cut Yankee won't have this problem, so a regular furler works fine.

Some purists will argue that a hanked-on staysail sets better - they're right. Furthermore, most staysails don't ever really get reefed - mine doesn't. Despite all of that, I still prefer having the staysail on a furler, for the reasons stated. My staysail doesn't set for s*#t in any case - it's self-tacking.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The convenience would be nice I suppose in lieu of needing to change sails. By the time you get two furling units and the sails stored aloft... that's alot of weight. 100lbs 20 ft up is like loosing a ton of ballast.... more or less....
If you are at 40 knots it seems you might know ahead of time to expect more weather and have a chance to change out early...?

Weight aloft is another valid point against furlers (and for carbon masts!). But 100 pounds at 20 feet up costs a ton of ballast only if the CG of your ballast is one foot below the waterline. Mine is in a bulb 2 meters down. . .

But it's a good point. If your boat wasn't designed for it, adding any weight aloft can have negative consequences - something to think about.

[barnakiel]

Both ways are fine.

I would go for a furling sail if I were to use the staysail very often. It is way more convenient to unfurl and go rather than try to hank on anything on already wet and wildly moving foredeck.

b.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I agree… I have this working self-tending staysail if I am really trying to maximize sail area plus 2 bullet proof storm jibs for heavy weather.

Takes about 5 minutes to change, which you do long before you need the storm jib.

I wouldn't mind working on that foredeck in any weather. Looks like a very secure place to be