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Old 17-07-2011, 09:25   #106
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Well, i talk for experience with this sytem to, both , from sailing in boats with in mast furling and from repair or make modifications .
Own a boat from 7 or 9 years with no problem at all is good, and sail in winds of force 7 to 9 to.
Maybe you have this kind of very good in mast furling brand, idk.
But for me this kind of discussion is like the one called Spade rudders or not , fin keels or not, there is a dangerous situation there, is called sail jam inside of the mast, if it happen or not in a 10 years frame time dont mean to much, is there,thats why this thing have some kind of reputation, i believe this days furlers systems are better designed and try to minimize the jam ocurrence, and well , yes, i experience the jam sail sesion in my own. Cheers.
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Old 17-07-2011, 09:58   #107
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I just can't understand where some of the more vociferous naysayers are coming from.
Because in general they are either repeating theoretical issues or other peoples third hand comments or regurgitating stuff from the early years of the technology.

Modern in masts, reliability maintained and competently operated have proven very troublefree. That fact alone can be ascertained from this thread and those users that have them.

Yes like all systems there are failure modes. But the moat troublese mainsail I sailed had bat cars and battens. The car got stuck and the sail couldn't be furled. The batten eventually failed and ripped mainsail. I personally wouldn't have battens in any of my sails as a result.

The oft repeated issue of jams in in-mast are somewhat overstated. Most jams occur near the end of the furling process and often what's left sticking out is smaller then a storm trysail. This renders it unlikely to be a problem in high winds. Most jams, once you don't keep grinding in, can be resolved by a forwards backwards motion. I would always therefore suggest reefing using a manual winch , never electric. Almost all jams occur due to inadequate outhaul tension, often by users experienced ! in other furling systems, who are used to dumping outhaul tension when furling.

Boom position can result in poor furling and sail damage but rarely results in jams.

As to sail trim etc. Obviously there is less sail are. Bur there are several system to overcome that if you want to.

Trim , well it's a cruising sail, most common trim actions can be accomplished

Really nick arguing that it's bad because the boom doesn't rise on reefing is a bit ridiculous. Most reefing system don't rise the boom either. Most boom today are high up anyway and especially on cruising. Friends if mine were offshore racing recently and there fully battened main ripped in big seas when the boom went in. It's a theorectical point that's all any system can fail.

To describe it as for the old and lazy is an insult. It's a viable system with several advantages and 30 years of user experience.

Dave
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Old 17-07-2011, 10:31   #108
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Sorry if you feel ofended, not my intention,.
Personally i think that a regular bat car system jamed come from a bad installation , maybe from where the 2 car sections come together, bat car jam in the gap between the 2 sections, but again, is just a ocurrence, improper installation, a bat car is a trouble free system hoisting and dowsing.
And finally i think Nick dont say that the boom dont rise when reefing, i understand the boom rise , but the sail be more baggy.


Add weight at the top and sections of the mast reduces the righting moment.
Who want more weight at the top of the mast ?
Add some radar antena and other stuff to the mast.= more weight.
Sail to winward in a blow with a partial in mast reefed sail is similar to sail to windward with a rolled genoa or jib, that mean bagy sail.
For me is more easy go to the mast and cringle a reef point in a slab reef sail, in the in mast way there is a lot of winching.

Idk, there a lot of ways to complicate your life, why complicated with the mainsail??
Cheers.
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Old 17-07-2011, 11:28   #109
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Capsize or Pitchpole Problems with Mainsails

In most all of this talk about furling mainsails I saw very few references to some other problems that can occur with too much mainsail deployed, particularly when sailing downwind in big conditions.

There was just recently a LOT of discussions on this subject (too much to repeat here) over on a multihull forum. Those discussions can be accessed here in their archives

Capsize due to inability to let the mainsail swing forward

http://steamradio.com/pipermail/multihulls/2011-July/subject.html
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Old 17-07-2011, 11:29   #110
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Funny...the more I listen to the naysayers, and my own ultra conservative nature...the more I realize how many other greater risks I am taking and the low probabilities of ALL of them. It's like herding a bunch of virtual cats.

With that perspective in mind, the more I want an in-mast furler.
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Old 17-07-2011, 11:36   #111
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

I don't want an in-mast furler because I'm not ready to give up on life yet
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Old 17-07-2011, 11:47   #112
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Giving up the roach is the first step toward trawler ownership! It would be much easier to just do away with those expensive pesky sails. Ha!
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Old 17-07-2011, 11:51   #113
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Giving up the roach is the first step toward trawler ownership! It would be much easier to just do away with those expensive pesky sails. Ha!

OMG!!!!!!
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Old 17-07-2011, 12:01   #114
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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OMG!!!!!!
That ought to turn up the heat!
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Old 17-07-2011, 12:29   #115
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

So, has anyone used the vertical battens in their furlers. And how do you get those things in there? BOB
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Old 17-07-2011, 20:04   #116
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

I have vertical battens on my in-mast. Neil Pryde, works fabulously. I flew a North Sail in mast with no battens before, and can see a marked difference in performance. The previous owner hated the vertical battened main and complained they always jammed, so initially I was hesitant to use it. I found out it was most likely O.E.- I've never had a problem, and the performance especially in light airs is great. If you are seriously interested in them, see this link which explains how they work, best practices, etc:

http://www.neilprydesails.com/pdfs/PBF-Overview.pdf

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Old 17-07-2011, 21:48   #117
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Reducing Mainsail Area Downwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoPowers View Post
I have vertical battens on my in-mast. Neil Pryde, works fabulously. I flew a North Sail in mast with no battens before, and can see a marked difference in performance. The previous owner hated the vertical battened main and complained they always jammed, so initially I was hesitant to use it. I found out it was most likely O.E.- I've never had a problem, and the performance especially in light airs is great. If you are seriously interested in them, see this link which explains how they work, best practices, etc:

http://www.neilprydesails.com/pdfs/PBF-Overview.pdf

Frank
From that referenced document;
2. The mainsail should always be furled with the boat head-to-wind or slightly from port. This is true for furling and unfurling the mainsail.
3. Furling or unfurling the sail with the wind on the starboard quarter will increase the friction of the sail on the mast, causing unnecessary wear.

Was that the primary reason for 'jamming'....not being able to furl the main when off the wind?

I mentioned that problem of reducing mainsail area above;

Capsize or Pitchpole Problems with Mainsails

In most all of this talk about furling mainsails I saw very few references to some other problems that can occur with too much mainsail deployed, particularly when sailing downwind in big conditions.

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Old 17-07-2011, 23:09   #118
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

This thread proves once again that CF members will defend the system they have with a relentless commitment and will never give in no matter how much evidence is brought forward that shows otherwise.

A child can understand that a bigger diameter mast of an in-mast system is no good except dead downwind; that the extra weight is no good ever and that this gets worse in comparison with slab reefing when you actually reef the sail... weight stays up with in-mast while it comes down with slab reefing.

These arguments are enough proof that in-mast is not better than slab reefing (it's disputably easier but not better).

But now we get the vertical battens... oh my, an owner writes here that he notices a significant speed improvement with these. This proves that doing away with battens and roach is actually bad and all those with in-mast without battens are missing a significant (very noticeable) speed factor. Chew on that for a while... "we slab reefers" drink the Cuba Libre's at anchor while "you in-masters" are still pushing buttons to make that sail move in/out of the mast while rounding up to the wind to prevent jamming.

Also, assuming we have normal wind which flows horizontal across the sails, one can successfully argue that the big diameter mast of an in-mast system disturbs the airflow in such a big manner that it doesn't matter anymore that every batten also disturbs that flow because they are mounted the wrong way.



ciao!
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Old 17-07-2011, 23:18   #119
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

In mast mains are seriously ugly.
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Old 18-07-2011, 05:33   #120
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Re: Reducing Mainsail Area Downwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
From that referenced document;
2. The mainsail should always be furled with the boat head-to-wind or slightly from port. This is true for furling and unfurling the mainsail.
3. Furling or unfurling the sail with the wind on the starboard quarter will increase the friction of the sail on the mast, causing unnecessary wear.

Was that the primary reason for 'jamming'....not being able to furl the main when off the wind?

I mentioned that problem of reducing mainsail area above;

Capsize or Pitchpole Problems with Mainsails
In most all of this talk about furling mainsails I saw very few references to some other problems that can occur with too much mainsail deployed, particularly when sailing downwind in big conditions.

Not sure why the prev owner had jams, I didn't really get into it with him about it. In practice, I've furled/unfurled with winds off the quarter, but the more aft the apparent wind the more friction there is so more resistance. Reefing while the boom is out to port especially might give you problems. I've found by sheeting in the main keeping tension on the outhaul I can reef downwind with no problems. We usually sail as me the defacto single hander while the wife and kids are enjoying themselves, and in mast makes reefing much simpler for one person.

Frank
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