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Old 16-07-2011, 09:45   #76
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I completely agree with that. But, we were discussing reefing and the only reason for doing that is because the weather conditions are dictating that. This automatically means that you want to flatten your sail; if you have never done that, try it. We call it our 4th reef point as it's effect equals a reef.

Downwind sailing the sailshape doesn't matter because the sails are 100% stalled anyway. A bag would work... in fact we use those and call them spinnakers. The bigger diameter mast even helps down wind.

ciao!
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Sail shape does matter downwind, in fact the baggier the better. Most people put some bag in their sail by lifting the boom a little.
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Old 16-07-2011, 09:51   #77
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
It's something lots of sailors don't understand. Your sails are supposed to be wing shaped so that they create lift and minimize drag (same for the keel which balances out with the sails to create that forward vector). The best wing shape is elliptical and the full-batten bat-wing shaped main sails as seen on Dashew yachts, multi-hulls and most modern designs in general, come closest to that optimal shape. Check out the shape of the main on a racer.

Any diversion from this shape means you get less lift and more drag, even if you have the same, or even more, surface area.

Now here's the deal: less efficient wings make you heel instead of go forward... and this slows you down, decreases comfort and creates a more dangerous situation on deck.

Dashew yachts have way less surface area than other, comparable cruisers. This makes the sails easier to handle and by optimizing shape, Dashew gets away with that without loosing performance.

No way!!! If a furling main is cut so as to adjust the boom angle, it needs that same, static angle for all reefed positions. You always want it cut for 90 degrees because you would simply loose too much surface area otherwise. Not so for a slab reefed main which will just lift the boom up a bit more with every additional reef.

In between furling you can sure adjust boom angle up, but that is clueless because it will only make the sail baggy, heel you more, which is exactly what you don't want when the going gets tough. You want the sail flat as a blade and the end of the boom pointing up simultaneously.

Todays boats are not designed to prevent rolling to the point that the end of the boom touches the water in a wave. That's just wishful thinking.

I did not say that at all. I said it was the PROPER way to learn it Earlier I talked about a guy that starts furling straight after stepping aboard from his RV. That didn't indicate any learning at all, which is what I often see hopping by (clueless "sailors" that are trying the "cruising" thing after last years RV'ing and without any sail-training whatsoever). These are the guys buying the boats and getting the issues with the furler as mentioned by WaterwayGuy.

I have no problem with people who love their in-mast furling or even with that system itself; I only have trouble with people saying that it is the better/superior system for modern boats. Many believe that because when "it comes out of the mast automatically", it must be way more advanced and better than the old system. That's just not true and I will keep telling that.

ciao!
Nick.
I love when people say something that is common knowledge, like your sail needs to be a given shape to create lift, and then claim it is little known. Of course more roach creates a better sail shape and develops more lift. However that lift is being developed at the masthead, not down lower in the rig. Lift or drag, whichever force you are applying, it matters where on the sail the force is being applied. More lift does not mean less heel, especially at the top of the sail. It simply applies more force to the top of the sail and makes it heel more. The improved sail shape allows you to point better, accelerate faster, and sail slightly faster in light winds. I happily trade all of those for added safety and ease of handling.
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Old 16-07-2011, 10:18   #78
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Nay, can one surmise that perhaps in-mast furling is more practical and less trouble prone (weight for example) on a larger boat than perchance a smaller one?
No.

Ours works perfectly.

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Old 16-07-2011, 10:27   #79
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

I'm beginning to feel we're never going to get any consensus on this topic. Either there are too many variables, or too many equal compromises.
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Old 16-07-2011, 10:34   #80
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I completely agree with that. But, we were discussing reefing and the only reason for doing that is because the weather conditions are dictating that. This automatically means that you want to flatten your sail; if you have never done that, try it. We call it our 4th reef point as it's effect equals a reef. ciao! Nick.
Nick our main is quite a flat sail to start with presumably to help it roll up.

The other point is you can easily raise the end of the boom because the sail is loose footed and actually the clew isn't even close to the end of the boom in either x or y directions.

Like everything else on a boat there is a learning experience required, whether its using the bog, the engine or an anchor. Sails are no different, you could spend a life time learning about sail trim.

What's important is the yacht and its systems suits the needs of the user. Racing around the bouys on a Sunday morning, you will want a J24 and half a dozen lads who don't mind getting wet or shouted at provided there is a drink afterwards.

Husband and wife going cruising, something simple and easy to use particularly on a larger yacht. If they choose inmast or boom reefing that's fine, if they want the more traditional slab reefing okay.
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Old 16-07-2011, 10:48   #81
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Nick our main is quite a flat sail to start with presumably to help it roll up.

The other point is you can easily raise the end of the boom because the sail is loose footed and actually the clew isn't even close to the end of the boom in either x or y directions.
My English must be horrible so let me try again: I don't believe that you can reef your in-mast furled main say halfway, lift the end of the boom up and maintain a flat sail. When you lift the end of the boom up, you get a baggy sail. That's my point, it's a weakness of in-mast furling.

ciao!
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Old 16-07-2011, 11:17   #82
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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My English must be horrible so let me try again: I don't believe that you can reef your in-mast furled main say halfway, lift the end of the boom up and maintain a flat sail. When you lift the end of the boom up, you get a baggy sail. That's my point, it's a weakness of in-mast furling. ciao! Nick.
Yes you can, because the outhaul runs through a car which is free to move along the top of the boom.

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Old 16-07-2011, 11:25   #83
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

i love my facnor it is still working as the day it was put in my yacht 21 yrs ago and pete you are correct yep just simply adjust out haul car and bobs your uncle
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Old 16-07-2011, 12:02   #84
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Yes you can, because the outhaul runs through a car which is free to move along the top of the boom.
but but... but... the outhaul only adjusts the foot of your sail... the leech is adjusted by the boom-vang and thus the boom position. If you lift up your boom, you can tighten the outhaul for all your might but that will never tighten the leech.

So, let me explain in detail how this is done with slab reefing for off-shore sails: for the first reef, the cringle at the leech is placed say 10" higher than the cringle at the luff. For the 2nd reef point, the cringle at the leech is placed 20" higher than the cringle at the luff, etc. in case of more reefs.

The effect of this is that the end of the boom goes higher and higher up as more reefs are put into the sail, while maintaining a flat sailshape.

This is just impossible to do for in-mast furling, no matter how much you would like it to happen . It doesn't matter that your sail is cut flat because when you lift the end of the boom up 20" the leech doesn't get shortened by 20".. you just make the sail baggy.

cheers,
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Old 16-07-2011, 12:08   #85
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

my friends with in mast furling only complained of frequently getting stuck, and rapid wear on mainsail causing frequent repairs and replacement. makes me wonder.....
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Old 16-07-2011, 12:22   #86
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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but but... but... the outhaul only adjusts the foot of your sail... the leech is adjusted by the boom-vang and thus the boom position. If you lift up your boom, you can tighten the outhaul for all your might but that will never tighten the leech. cheers, Nick.
Hmm, nope disagree

Have a look at this photo, you can see the car and that the outhaul applies a considerable downward force to the main.

The photo was taken when sailing dead downwind in light airs so the outhaul was slackened slightly to give a bit of shape to the main. The boom whilst looking close to the central line of the yacht is actually hanging over the side and the main set so it is just clear of the standing rigging.

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Old 16-07-2011, 12:26   #87
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

if you dont have the boom set at right height yes you do get probs with hauling in and out i did find that out some yrs ago a lesson learnt some yrs ago but have never had a prob since and you do get probs if you leave sail in mast over winter lay up have found one yr when i did leave sail in that dirt and dust got in but having said that my main is now 10yrs old this sept
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Old 16-07-2011, 12:28   #88
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

I just felt that the touchy furling techinque, occassional jams in the mast, lack of roach etc all added up to the in-mast furling not being less bother really. I just like the simpicity of knowing I can reef quickly and well and be under control I guess. The furler was nice if putting the boat away in lieu of putting on the mainsail cover though. To each his/her own.
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Old 16-07-2011, 12:50   #89
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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I'm beginning to feel we're never going to get any consensus on this topic. Either there are too many variables, or too many equal compromises.
Of course not. And why would we want consensus. It's matter of taste and individual priorities. It's like demanding consensus on Wagner vs. Mahler. Well, I hate Wagner and love Mahler, but that's just me. Why should I care if it's the other way around for you?

Well, actually, Wagner vs. Mahler is probably a more important issue than slab reefing vs. furling main, but you get my point.
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Old 16-07-2011, 12:55   #90
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

I think Wagner vs Debussy has some clearer boundaries.

Wagner vs Mahler hmmmm

wait...is this thread drift?

Im sort of worn out. I'll take any boat I can afford that has a decent engine! Beneteau or Ingrid 38! in mast or Gaff! manson or Danforth! *sigh
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