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Old 15-11-2014, 18:30   #226
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Seems to me, an out-of-mast-furling mainsail is less problematic as it's mechanisms are readily accessible. No boom here, but then sails here aren't primarily for propulsion.

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Old 15-11-2014, 18:30   #227
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
Do you have a roller furling genoa? Do you take it down and hoist a number 3 when it starts honking? It's well known that a furled headsail is not as efficient.
Yes, I have a roller furling genoa. No, I don't take it down and hoist a number three when it starts honking.

Rather, at around 20 I furl it and unfurl my Solent jib which is the rough equivalent of a number four blade. If the wind gets up to over 30 to 35 and I must get to windward in a seaway, I use a double or triple reefed main and a partly furled (ie reefed) Solent. Works pretty well up to over 40, where I usually give up trying to get to windward.

Is that OK with you? What do you do?

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Old 15-11-2014, 18:51   #228
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Would you sail with a reef in all the time?

It seems that is the question to ask yourself. If the answer is yes, perhaps....
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Old 17-11-2014, 14:10   #229
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

OK so more people are weighing in on this old thread!

Here is what I can see from it....

In-mast furling means a compromise in performance, in particular upwind performance. No roach, no battens. (this does not mean the boat will not go upwind, just not as fast/high).

In-mast furling jams. Apparently, from comments, alot of the time the jams are the result of operator error. Alot of the time the jam can be worked out in real time. There can be bad jams that cannot be worked out in real time. There can be a catastrophic jam that causes...what? The boat to sink? (outside of this thread, I keep hearing that newer sail fabrics are much better at avoiding jams.)

For all of you slab junkies.... Slab reefing has jams too. This can include having to work the clew end of the boom. And slab reefing has jams due to operator error. Slab reefing also requires a visit to the mast (at least one) EACH time anything needs to be done. Does slab reefing jam less than in mast furling? Maybe. I'll start an argument, but I'll say that slab reefing is much harder if you singlehand.

In-mast furling is safer because you never leave the cockpit. It is ideal for single handing.

A catastrophic jam for an in mast furler sounds bad. But a man overboard from trying to unjam a swinging boom sounds much worse.

An who really cares about upwind performance??? Certainly not cruisers. Maybe people who cross oceans because they can get a shorter route (a completely uncomfortable, thrashing route).

I agree with the poster that says that in the future the only boats with slab reefing will be raceboats. The performance will just continue to get better from in mast, and the safety/ease of use will never improve for slab reefing.

To the people that say in mast roller furling is bad because it jams...you are not being completely honest. It does jam, especially if you don;t use it right. When it jams, you can often (usually?) get it unjammed. When its bad, its bad. Slab reefing jams too. When its bad, its bad (or worse).

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Old 17-11-2014, 14:22   #230
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy View Post
OK so more people are weighing in on this old thread!

Here is what I can see from it....

In-mast furling means a compromise in performance, in particular upwind performance. No roach, no battens. (this does not mean the boat will not go upwind, just not as fast/high).

In-mast furling jams. Apparently, from comments, alot of the time the jams are the result of operator error. Alot of the time the jam can be worked out in real time. There can be bad jams that cannot be worked out in real time. There can be a catastrophic jam that causes...what? The boat to sink? (outside of this thread, I keep hearing that newer sail fabrics are much better at avoiding jams.)

For all of you slab junkies.... Slab reefing has jams too. This can include having to work the clew end of the boom. And slab reefing has jams due to operator error. Slab reefing also requires a visit to the mast (at least one) EACH time anything needs to be done. Does slab reefing jam less than in mast furling? Maybe. I'll start an argument, but I'll say that slab reefing is much harder if you singlehand.

In-mast furling is safer because you never leave the cockpit. It is ideal for single handing.

A catastrophic jam for an in mast furler sounds bad. But a man overboard from trying to unjam a swinging boom sounds much worse.

An who really cares about upwind performance??? Certainly not cruisers. Maybe people who cross oceans because they can get a shorter route (a completely uncomfortable, thrashing route).

I agree with the poster that says that in the future the only boats with slab reefing will be raceboats. The performance will just continue to get better from in mast, and the safety/ease of use will never improve for slab reefing.

To the people that say in mast roller furling is bad because it jams...you are not being completely honest. It does jam, especially if you don;t use it right. When it jams, you can often (usually?) get it unjammed. When its bad, its bad. Slab reefing jams too. When its bad, its bad (or worse).

Good and balanced post. I don't think I've ever seen slab reefing "jam" though..?
Either style of reefing can be rigged to do from the cockpit.
While technically an in-mast "jam" is operator error.... it's kinda like saying if someone falls off tightrope walking it's "operator error"... stuff happens in "real world " situations. Like I mentioned in the earlier post... the boat is pitching 6 feet up and down, effecting the mainsail in it's travels....
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Old 17-11-2014, 14:46   #231
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Thanks for the endorsement Cheech!

I say operator error because of posts about people "getting lazy and trying to furl on a run", or not "tightening the topping lift to raise the boom", or other steps one would follow for "best practices".

As for slab jams, I had a nasty one on saturday. Not my first.

So in response to the poster who pointed out that we do get light wind days on SF bay, I took my boat out on Saturday. My normal pattern is to put in a reef in April, and shake it out in October. I didn't sail in October, so I made it to November.

My boat has slab reefing, with lines back to the cockpit. I had to go to the mast 4 times to get it right. There is so much friction in the system that the lines need to be physically manipulated at the mast, and at the end of the boom. That was me reaching out over the water to the boom on Saturday off candlestick, trying to get my %$*&@^ slab reef to work right.

So yes, slab reefing has jams too. But you can take comfort that no matter what, you can get the sail down. It may be a big, wind capturing mess down on deck, but you can get it down.

I will start another argument by suggesting that, for the majority of sailors, roller furling is better. The fact that roller furling has taken share is not an accident, or just "marketing".
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Old 17-11-2014, 15:22   #232
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
> Here in the US, we have a politcal party that acts like this.

Please keep your petty, parochial political opinions out of this sailing discussion. I'm not interested in them and I doubt that anyone else here is either.
I agree. What a meaningless provocation? Instant ignore button candidate.

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Old 07-12-2014, 09:55   #233
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

I have a Selden in-mast furling for my Beneslow and it works well now. It jammed quite a bit in the early days until I figured it out. Biggest problem now is that I never win any races. Technique is everything. And if you let someone else operate it you might be headed for trouble and perhaps even up the mast to fix. The secret for me is to keep as must tension as practical on the outhaul when furling and on the furling line when unfurling.


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Old 13-01-2015, 23:28   #234
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

I have recently, about 10 months ago, fitted a furling boom on my Jeanneau 49.
I have found it very simple to use and the boat sails faster and closer than with the previous slab reefing main.
Any problems and I can just drop the sail, also there are 6 battens and an infinite number of reefs available.


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Old 16-01-2015, 07:35   #235
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy View Post
Thanks for the endorsement Cheech!

I say operator error because of posts about people "getting lazy and trying to furl on a run", or not "tightening the topping lift to raise the boom", or other steps one would follow for "best practices".

As for slab jams, I had a nasty one on saturday. Not my first.

So in response to the poster who pointed out that we do get light wind days on SF bay, I took my boat out on Saturday. My normal pattern is to put in a reef in April, and shake it out in October. I didn't sail in October, so I made it to November.

My boat has slab reefing, with lines back to the cockpit. I had to go to the mast 4 times to get it right. There is so much friction in the system that the lines need to be physically manipulated at the mast, and at the end of the boom. That was me reaching out over the water to the boom on Saturday off candlestick, trying to get my %$*&@^ slab reef to work right.

So yes, slab reefing has jams too. But you can take comfort that no matter what, you can get the sail down. It may be a big, wind capturing mess down on deck, but you can get it down.

I will start another argument by suggesting that, for the majority of sailors, roller furling is better. The fact that roller furling has taken share is not an accident, or just "marketing".
Sounds to me like you need to overhaul your system. New sheaves, thinner stronger slipperier lines and you should be OK. We are reefing multiple times per day here in the SW/NW Carib and your reefing MUST work well. Also don't understand why you say a slab reefing jam is worse than a stuck mast furler. In one you can still drop the sail in the other you cannot. Pretty clear to me which option I would rather have. As to the rest of it, I can't believe that in mast furling will ever supplant slabs. In boom has the better chance if you ask me.
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Old 16-01-2015, 09:42   #236
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy View Post
OK so more people are weighing in on this old thread!

Here is what I can see from it....

In-mast furling means a compromise in performance, in particular upwind performance. No roach, no battens. (this does not mean the boat will not go upwind, just not as fast/high).

In-mast furling jams. Apparently, from comments, alot of the time the jams are the result of operator error. Alot of the time the jam can be worked out in real time. There can be bad jams that cannot be worked out in real time. There can be a catastrophic jam that causes...what? The boat to sink? (outside of this thread, I keep hearing that newer sail fabrics are much better at avoiding jams.)

For all of you slab junkies.... Slab reefing has jams too. This can include having to work the clew end of the boom. And slab reefing has jams due to operator error. Slab reefing also requires a visit to the mast (at least one) EACH time anything needs to be done. Does slab reefing jam less than in mast furling? Maybe. I'll start an argument, but I'll say that slab reefing is much harder if you singlehand.

In-mast furling is safer because you never leave the cockpit. It is ideal for single handing.

A catastrophic jam for an in mast furler sounds bad. But a man overboard from trying to unjam a swinging boom sounds much worse.

An who really cares about upwind performance??? Certainly not cruisers. Maybe people who cross oceans because they can get a shorter route (a completely uncomfortable, thrashing route).

I agree with the poster that says that in the future the only boats with slab reefing will be raceboats. The performance will just continue to get better from in mast, and the safety/ease of use will never improve for slab reefing.

To the people that say in mast roller furling is bad because it jams...you are not being completely honest. It does jam, especially if you don;t use it right. When it jams, you can often (usually?) get it unjammed. When its bad, its bad. Slab reefing jams too. When its bad, its bad (or worse).

Here's another well-documented example of a cruising couple jamming an in-mast furler and requiring outside assistance:

Ben Ainslie sets the record straight after his “rescue” by Richard Branson

If one of the most famous sailors in the world can't get it right, is this the system you really want for remote parts of the world where help isn't standing by??
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Old 16-01-2015, 09:47   #237
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Here's another well-documented example of a cruising couple jamming an in-mast furler and requiring outside assistance:

Ben Ainslie sets the record straight after his “rescue” by Richard Branson

If one of the most famous sailors in the world can't get it right, is this the system you really want for remote parts of the world where help isn't standing by??
Well obviously not if you are Ben Ainslie!!
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Old 16-01-2015, 12:49   #238
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Yesterday we unstep a selden inmast furling mast to free a jam,, believe it or not we finally opt to drop the mast and disconect the mast head to reléase the whole furler and the sail, maybe i take some pictures so you guys can see how bloody messy and expensive is to forget to keep tensión in the lines when unfurl and furl....
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Old 16-01-2015, 13:37   #239
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy View Post
Thanks for the endorsement Cheech!

I say operator error because of posts about people "getting lazy and trying to furl on a run", or not "tightening the topping lift to raise the boom", or other steps one would follow for "best practices".

As for slab jams, I had a nasty one on saturday. Not my first.

So in response to the poster who pointed out that we do get light wind days on SF bay, I took my boat out on Saturday. My normal pattern is to put in a reef in April, and shake it out in October. I didn't sail in October, so I made it to November.

My boat has slab reefing, with lines back to the cockpit. I had to go to the mast 4 times to get it right. There is so much friction in the system that the lines need to be physically manipulated at the mast, and at the end of the boom. That was me reaching out over the water to the boom on Saturday off candlestick, trying to get my %$*&@^ slab reef to work right.

So yes, slab reefing has jams too. But you can take comfort that no matter what, you can get the sail down. It may be a big, wind capturing mess down on deck, but you can get it down.

I will start another argument by suggesting that, for the majority of sailors, roller furling is better. The fact that roller furling has taken share is not an accident, or just "marketing".
All I can say, Scurvy, is that if one had an in mast furling system as badly designed, maintained and operated as your slab reefing system sounds, it would fail on a regular basis.

Your experience does not reflect what most users of slab systems experience, and in your place I'd invest in some modifications to improve your reefing system and practice. If you don't see how to do it, there are plenty of good riggers around the Bay who can help.

Or you can continue to struggle with it as is, and denigrate all slab systems as unworkable.

Jim
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Old 16-01-2015, 18:09   #240
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy View Post
Thanks for the endorsement Cheech!

I say operator error because of posts about people "getting lazy and trying to furl on a run", or not "tightening the topping lift to raise the boom", or other steps one would follow for "best practices".

As for slab jams, I had a nasty one on saturday. Not my first.

So in response to the poster who pointed out that we do get light wind days on SF bay, I took my boat out on Saturday. My normal pattern is to put in a reef in April, and shake it out in October. I didn't sail in October, so I made it to November.

My boat has slab reefing, with lines back to the cockpit. I had to go to the mast 4 times to get it right. There is so much friction in the system that the lines need to be physically manipulated at the mast, and at the end of the boom. That was me reaching out over the water to the boom on Saturday off candlestick, trying to get my %$*&@^ slab reef to work right.

So yes, slab reefing has jams too. But you can take comfort that no matter what, you can get the sail down. It may be a big, wind capturing mess down on deck, but you can get it down.

I will start another argument by suggesting that, for the majority of sailors, roller furling is better. The fact that roller furling has taken share is not an accident, or just "marketing".
Scurvy,

Something's gotta be wrong with your system if you're having that much trouble. Jim's somewhat terse advice to you to discuss the situation with a rigger might actually help.

Some singlehanders heave to in order to reef, maybe that technique would work for you.

On our boat, which has swept back spreaders, to reef, we come up to about 30 deg. apparent, let off the main sheet, go forward to drop and re-tension halyard, return to cockpit, winch in the reef line, and pull the others through their stoppers, and finally re-sheet the main, and resume sailing. I can do it myself, and I'm slower than Jim for sure, but it never takes more than the one trip to the mast.

I hope you get it sorted out: it'll make your sailing life much more pleasant.

Ann
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