Furling Mainsail or Not ?

[Cheechako]

Yeah... i hear ya on the goofballs! I used head sail alone alot in the carribean. 25-40 mile jaunts. Lazy I guess! Point the boat and unfurl the headsail..20-25 knots of wind and hull speed reached without dealing with the main at all.....
As I remember it the double headsail sailors left them up for days in the 20-25knot trades. Not that I would...never had the balls for that setup... just too hard to get everything down fast! Tried it with one sail flying free on my Cat.... just for the heck of it... You gotta have a real steady wind or like to pay attention....!

[goboatingnow]

Nick let's look at it this way

(a) performance. Modern boats are designed with in mast in mind. Hence performance is adequate but not the maximum. It meets the expectations of it's users. That's all that matters

(b) mast sections. Yes bigger though with modern design and materials not much bigger. Again performance is within expectation hence irrelevant.

(c) stability. Again within design specification so irrelevant.

(d) roach. Solvable via several means such as air battens , vertical battens. However see (a)

(e) reefing of wind. Again fully possible with most in-masts without vertical battens.
We had a hood in mast on a downwind transatlantic , no problems furling for squalls

Most of the theoretical complaints in relation to in-mast came from the early days of retro-fit systems. The same is not true with modern boats designed for factory made in masts.

Dave

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Hud3

I've read the negative comments in this thread, and wonder if the posters are mostly talking theory, or have they personally experienced all the problems they outline.

I laughed when I read this.

Typical of these conversations, someone with a full-keel, cutter-rigged, canoe-sterned cruiser with a tan-bark, miter-cut yankee hanked to the headstay, will state that the reason for staying away from in-mast furling is that it tends to reduce performance.

Ahem.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Bash

I laughed when I read this.

Typical of these conversations, someone with a full-keel, cutter-rigged, canoe-sterned cruiser with a tan-bark, miter-cut yankee hanked to the headstay, will state that the reason for staying away from in-mast furling is that it tends to reduce performance.

Ahem.

ROFL!

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As to Colregs , what nonsense. Given what you said we'd never use spinakers The colregs recognise that sailing vessels are hampered hence their priority over motor

Dave

Not sure about the spinnaker comment. They absolutely have to used with mainsails.

Make that some motor.

Rule 18

A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

a vessel not under command;
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
a vessel engaged in fishing.

Rule 10(j)

A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

[SaltyMonkey]

Or as SaltyMonkey remembers:

*ahem

No matter if you're a big three master,
If she has power, she is faster.
Barquentine or sleek square rigger,
If she has power she is bigger.
To you yourself you always say,
"She has power and right of way".

(Bowing)

[beiland]

Originally Posted by daddle

You have it backwards? In big conditions I'd only have a reefed main up. No headsail at all, or a very small one perhaps. Sailing on headsail alone is never a good idea...except possibly in drifting conditions. Shall I list the reasons?

I’m sailing from the Chesapeake Bay down to St.Thomas, USVI on Christmas eve in a heavy full-keel 47 wood cutter staysail ketch. I know there is a storm approaching, but I figure if I can get out past the Gulf stream (avoid the northerly wind against the north flowing current) before it hits, then I will ‘run’ with the wind and waves in the open ocean. It turns out to be a much more intense storm than predicted with a very intense center that moves just north of Bermuda. I experience 50-60 knots of wind for two and a half days. I am surfing BIG but organized seas using a hankerchief-size staysail. It’s reported that two other vessels nearer the center of the low pressure are sunk in the same storm. I have two other inexperienced crew onboard and we are doing 3 hour shifts, as that is as long as you can concentrate on avoiding a broach.

I decide the wind is high enough to run under bare poles and save the staysail from gibing itself to death, and maybe keep my bowsprit out of the backface of the wave at the bottom of the trough. We slow down all right, but now the crest of the waves are breaking over my stern and completely filling my cockpit. Tons of water is captured in the cockpit floor space and spills thru the engine hatch seams located there. It’s drowning my brand new diesel engine, and the slower surfing speed has aggravated our broaching tendency. Bilges getting full of water.

Back up with the staysail until we are all so tired, I decided to heave to with a rudder forcing her to windward and a backed staysail forcing her off wind. Finally some much needed rest for all of us. I cannot think of a drogue arrangement that I could have left UNATTENDED in this situation, either in reference to broaching tendencies caused by the opposite rotation of the surface waters at the crest of the wave as opposed to that in the trough, nor with reference to the amounts of water I was collecting in the bilges.

Thats one time when I developed my affinity for ketch rigged vessels....never used a mainsail in that storm

[daddle]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As to Colregs , what nonsense. Given what you said we'd never use spinakers.

Spinnaker up with no main in a big blow? Really? On a cruising forum?

Yeah, it's a safety problem. Because if you need to turn very far in either direction you are going to have a big problem. You'd have to douse the headsail (headsails?) and then hoist the main. That would be slow. Or perhaps be an even bigger noob and start the engine.

The reefed main much is safer because I can sail in any direction, shorthanded, without much fuss. If a gybe is iffy I can always chicken gybe, tack, instead. With a only a jib out few boats will even make it thru a tack in a blow. We see this rolled out genoa nonsense out on the windy SF Bay all the time. What a bad idea.

[s/v Jedi]

This all depends much on the type of boat and the circumstances. You can't compare a mostly furled genoa with a blade jib on a cutter stay and you can't compare SF Bay with the middle of the ocean.

For us, being a ketch, we are completely balanced with just the main. For most (< 50') sloops I recommend a stormjib with a trysail, and if that's too much, just the trysail.

ciao!
Nick.

[Lexam]

I think you could irresponsibly use any sail regardless if it's in-mast or or not. So if you are running the head sail only or not, that is almost irrelevant. The only relevancy I'm seeing is someone would be less likely to do this with an in-mast furling than a traditional rig.. With a slap reefing you look at the main and go "oh man I've got to haul that up, eh I'll be good with the genoa." With in-mast "Lets take out the main" pushes button.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Lexam

With in-mast "Lets take out the main" pushes button.

Assuming that the system is electric. Two of the boats that I use for instruction have electric main halyard winches - push button main sail raising.

Lazy sailors will be lazy using any system.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by beiland

I’m sailing from the Chesapeake Bay down to St.Thomas, USVI on Christmas eve in a heavy full-keel 47 wood cutter staysail ketch. I know there is a storm approaching, but I figure if I can get out past the Gulf stream (avoid the northerly wind against the north flowing current) before it hits, then I will ‘run’ with the wind and waves in the open ocean. It turns out to be a much more intense storm than predicted with a very intense center that moves just north of Bermuda. I experience 50-60 knots of wind for two and a half days. I am surfing BIG but organized seas using a hankerchief-size staysail. It’s reported that two other vessels nearer the center of the low pressure are sunk in the same storm. I have two other inexperienced crew onboard and we are doing 3 hour shifts, as that is as long as you can concentrate on avoiding a broach.

I decide the wind is high enough to run under bare poles and save the staysail from gibing itself to death, and maybe keep my bowsprit out of the backface of the wave at the bottom of the trough. We slow down all right, but now the crest of the waves are breaking over my stern and completely filling my cockpit. Tons of water is captured in the cockpit floor space and spills thru the engine hatch seams located there. It’s drowning my brand new diesel engine, and the slower surfing speed has aggravated our broaching tendency. Bilges getting full of water.

Back up with the staysail until we are all so tired, I decided to heave to with a rudder forcing her to windward and a backed staysail forcing her off wind. Finally some much needed rest for all of us. I cannot think of a drogue arrangement that I could have left UNATTENDED in this situation, either in reference to broaching tendencies caused by the opposite rotation of the surface waters at the crest of the wave as opposed to that in the trough, nor with reference to the amounts of water I was collecting in the bilges.

Thats one time when I developed my affinity for ketch rigged vessels....never used a mainsail in that storm

You have posted an interesting read but it doesn't prove anything about the value of setting a main. Had you set a main and nothing else, be it reefed or partly furled, the boat might have performed even better. We'll never know.

[Sand crab]

For you furling fans there is a big new vertical batten main on Ebay. I think it was a Neil Pryde. You look it up. My fingers are tired. And... did anyone answer my previous query on how you install said battens? 60' sail 40' batten, whew! BOB

[beiland]

Originally Posted by savoir

You have posted an interesting read but it doesn't prove anything about the value of setting a main. Had you set a main and nothing else, be it reefed or partly furled, the boat might have performed even better. We'll never know.

Would you think I would want a main up in those conditions with the potential for a boom to be swinging across my head as I steered down the BIG waves at speed trying to avoid a broach to either side...surely you must be kidding

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by beiland

Would you think I would want a main up in those conditions with the potential for a boom to be swinging across my head as I steered down the BIG waves at speed trying to avoid a broach to either side...surely you must be kidding

He might not have thought that and you might not have wanted that... but I have done that multiple times except the boom didn't swing because it was held securely with a preventer and I was not going to broach because Jedi doesn't want to do that.

Every boat handles differently; a trysail is still the best option for almost every boat out there but for some reason it's being ignored It gives you a main without the boom...

ciao!
Nick.