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Old 23-11-2016, 23:52   #16
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by David B View Post
A number have quoted similar thoughts, but I will throw my perspective into the mix.
Think of it this way. When the full main is out - maximum wind for full main, you have all that power on the clew, and the clew is designed for it.
You have also all that power on the luff, and the luff is designed for it.
When reefed, your sail is flatter - exactly what you need. You also have a change of ratio between windage on the hull, and sail area - the hull is having a significantly greater effect, so you have proportionately less sail for the higher wind, than you would if there was no hull windage
Therefore, for the same overall result, the sail is doing less work now, therefore the clew is actually under less strain than in more moderate conditions with a full main!

Now to the luff - yes the exposed length of it is less for the same pull from the clew (equal and opposite forces ...), but it is a softer transfer of force back onto the roll inside the mast, than with the sail fully out, and just the luff bolt-rope inside the extrusion, and that stitched luff taking all the load.

We have quite comfortably had ours out a couple of metres in gusting F9, and never did I think it was under undue stress.

If it is going to fail, it will tear at the leach as it enters the mast slot, and as the leach is spiraling as you furl, it is not laying up, and therefore you could reinforce the leach if you were really concerned.

Alternatively, on the port side of the slot on your Selden mast, you have a bolt-rope channel for a storm tri-sail. With a spare halyard and a fully furled main, that is the real option for real heavy weather sailing.

Hope that helps you along with the other comments in this thread.

David
A good analysis!

Remember also that the forces are acting over shorter spans -- so less "leverage".


I have the same Selden mast with the special track for the storm trisail. This mast is extremely common on boats made in Northern Europe (Oyster, HR, Contest, Discovery, Moody, etc.). I have known many sailors with this mast who actually own a trisail, as you are obligated to keep one on board for RORC and probably other ocean races.

I have never known a single sailor with the Selden mast, who ever once used the trisail in anger, even in horrendous weather.

One reason for that is that getting the trisail up and down is a fairly involved operation, requiring you to go to the mast and do quite a bit of work on deck getting the sheets reeved etc. Then once rigged, you have no control over sail area and no way to drop the sail without going back to the mast. And the trisail is NOT self-tacking.

The regular furling main, on the other hand, can be taken away and furled, or on the contrary, sail area increased or regulated, from the cockpit. It is self-tacking. You never have to go to the mast or do any work on deck.


So I don't personally see any point in the trisail, except as backup. In any case, from F9, I'm not using any kind of mainsail at all anyway. By this time, I'm on staysail alone, or I'm running off with a bit of the principle headsail out. Older design boats with low aspect sail plans and long keels maybe needed the trisail for balance. Higher aspect sail plans on boats with effective keels, at least my boat, don't need that -- they balance just fine with just the staysail, the CE of which is very close to the keel anyway.

The trisail track can be used to hoist the regular mainsail, in the unlikely event that the furling mechanism self-destructs and becomes completely unusuable. I have tried this! The luff rope of the furling mainsail fits just right in the trisail track. You would only need to rig some kind of reef points -- pop in cringles at the right places -- so you can secure tack and clew at the right place for the hoist of the trisail track. This would be a bit of work, but nothing superhuman.
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Old 24-11-2016, 04:53   #17
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
A good analysis!

Remember also that the forces are acting over shorter spans -- so less "leverage".


I have the same Selden mast with the special track for the storm trisail. This mast is extremely common on boats made in Northern Europe (Oyster, HR, Contest, Discovery, Moody, etc.). I have known many sailors with this mast who actually own a trisail, as you are obligated to keep one on board for RORC and probably other ocean races.

I have never known a single sailor with the Selden mast, who ever once used the trisail in anger, even in horrendous weather.

One reason for that is that getting the trisail up and down is a fairly involved operation, requiring you to go to the mast and do quite a bit of work on deck getting the sheets reeved etc. Then once rigged, you have no control over sail area and no way to drop the sail without going back to the mast. And the trisail is NOT self-tacking.

The regular furling main, on the other hand, can be taken away and furled, or on the contrary, sail area increased or regulated, from the cockpit. It is self-tacking. You never have to go to the mast or do any work on deck.


So I don't personally see any point in the trisail, except as backup. In any case, from F9, I'm not using any kind of mainsail at all anyway. By this time, I'm on staysail alone, or I'm running off with a bit of the principle headsail out. Older design boats with low aspect sail plans and long keels maybe needed the trisail for balance. Higher aspect sail plans on boats with effective keels, at least my boat, don't need that -- they balance just fine with just the staysail, the CE of which is very close to the keel anyway.

The trisail track can be used to hoist the regular mainsail, in the unlikely event that the furling mechanism self-destructs and becomes completely unusuable. I have tried this! The luff rope of the furling mainsail fits just right in the trisail track. You would only need to rig some kind of reef points -- pop in cringles at the right places -- so you can secure tack and clew at the right place for the hoist of the trisail track. This would be a bit of work, but nothing superhuman.
Good point re the reduced span of the sail - even less force then

Regarding the trysail, I would have thought the clew would be lashed to the (empty) boom. Probably about where the kicker is, so a good attachment point under the lashing to keep the clew out there. Therefore you just use the mainsheet as usual. No ?

Anyway, at the back of my mind I had it that we should perhaps add a trysail to the inventory - off the list now, so thanks
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Old 24-11-2016, 05:20   #18
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

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Originally Posted by David B View Post
Good point re the reduced span of the sail - even less force then

Regarding the trysail, I would have thought the clew would be lashed to the (empty) boom. Probably about where the kicker is, so a good attachment point under the lashing to keep the clew out there. Therefore you just use the mainsheet as usual. No ?

Anyway, at the back of my mind I had it that we should perhaps add a trysail to the inventory - off the list now, so thanks
No, you don't use the boom with a trisail. You're supposed to strike the boom down on deck and get it out of the way. Like I said - it's pretty involved. Sheets (two of them) go to turning blocks, which ALSO need to be rigged up.

I think you need it with a regular mainsail, but IMHO not really much point if you have a furling main.

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Old 24-11-2016, 15:50   #19
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
No, you don't use the boom with a trisail. You're supposed to strike the boom down on deck and get it out of the way. Like I said - it's pretty involved. Sheets (two of them) go to turning blocks, which ALSO need to be rigged up.

I think you need it with a regular mainsail, but IMHO not really much point if you have a furling main.

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OK, thanks for the advice - always learning
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Old 24-11-2016, 15:57   #20
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

In 20+ years I never attempted to get storm/trisail up. A deep 3rd reef in the main was fine, little staysil on a roller. 50 - 60 kts in the harbour not unusual.

The exception was once ... gauge showed it gust 80 unexpectedly. I unprepared, rounding a headland entering harbour in the pitch black. It'd been steady 50 at sea.

Lost sight of the wind gauge around that stage due to watery eyes. Felt I had better ease the sheet. Probably a mistake. Main flogged like unbelievable hell shaking the rig like I'd never imagined, and the top two meters of main just disappeared before I could think of how to react. Maybe 30 seconds. Probably should have realised the harbour entrance was a wind funnel and had the tri worked out and the staysil up that night.

Never realised not to rig a trisail to the boom. Hmmm. That might explain a fitting on the main cabin roof that I'd never really found a use for. Thanks Dock.
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Old 25-11-2016, 07:04   #21
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

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Originally Posted by Scotty Kiwi View Post
In 20+ years I never attempted to get storm/trisail up. A deep 3rd reef in the main was fine, little staysil on a roller. 50 - 60 kts in the harbour not unusual.

The exception was once ... gauge showed it gust 80 unexpectedly. I unprepared, rounding a headland entering harbour in the pitch black. It'd been steady 50 at sea.

Lost sight of the wind gauge around that stage due to watery eyes. Felt I had better ease the sheet. Probably a mistake. Main flogged like unbelievable hell shaking the rig like I'd never imagined, and the top two meters of main just disappeared before I could think of how to react. Maybe 30 seconds. Probably should have realised the harbour entrance was a wind funnel and had the tri worked out and the staysil up that night.

Never realised not to rig a trisail to the boom. Hmmm. That might explain a fitting on the main cabin roof that I'd never really found a use for. Thanks Dock.

Here some good information on how to rig and use a trisail (or trysail -- I may be spelling it wrong):

https://youtu.be/ECdtga_s5R0

Note that it takes Skip Novak plus 5 crew (!) 25 minutes (!) to get it rigged, and that in benign flat water.

He recommends a deep reef in the regular main instead, due to the manifold risks of carrying out that operation in real heavy weather.
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Old 26-11-2016, 14:02   #22
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

I have always rigged my trisails to the end of the boom, much better set and control.

Its good to be able to rig it independent of the boom in case of a damaged boom or gooseneck.

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Old 26-11-2016, 15:59   #23
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

I have used a furling main as a storm sail on a small (35ft) boat. It worked very well. We blew the car (the car on the boom) though.

I did not see any problems with furling nor with sail strength. I think this is a viable solution.

Get either an upsize car or at least make sure yours is 100% fit for the job. Ours was not - but it was not my boat just a boat delivered ad hoc for (...) scared owners. I did not know the quality nor condition of the gear. Probably it was just due to age tear and wear.

We substituted the car with a spectra loop. It was good enough and we made it fine to a safe harbour.

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Old 26-11-2016, 17:09   #24
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

We have a furling main that we have used reefed down to trysail size (or smaller) in 45 to 55 knots with success. We also have a trysail which has its own track. When we crossed the Indian Ocean to South Africa we had the trysail in its track (and in its bag0 ready to go but never felt the need for it. Seems to me that if the winds were any stronger we would not want any sail up, perhaps the storm jib if off the wind. I think the idea of a trysail if fine but it may not be used if you other suitable sails (storm jib and furling main).
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Old 27-11-2016, 17:21   #25
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Here some good information on how to rig and use a trisail (or trysail -- I may be spelling it wrong):

https://youtu.be/ECdtga_s5R0

Note that it takes Skip Novak plus 5 crew (!) 25 minutes (!) to get it rigged, and that in benign flat water.

He recommends a deep reef in the regular main instead, due to the manifold risks of carrying out that operation in real heavy weather.
Learning more and more here - if Skip Novak does not recommend a trisail, then I take note. Good - I will stay with our in-mast main, and just bring out the staysail for heavy weather.
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Old 27-11-2016, 17:49   #26
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

One question, does the sail rub on the slot where it enters the mast when it is that furled? If so, you may have chaffing problems.

Dave
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Old 27-11-2016, 23:23   #27
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Re: Furling main for Storm sail - killing the idea

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One question, does the sail rub on the slot where it enters the mast when it is that furled? If so, you may have chaffing problems.

Dave
The sail always touches the slot, resting on the side of it, no matter whether it's furled or not.

It doesn't chafe because it doesn't move in and out.
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