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Old 14-05-2016, 17:57   #31
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Re: Furling Lines

I think Dockheads point here http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/....php?p=2119233 in a similar thread about the dangers of overwinching a furler are valid, especially on a big boat with power winches. A moments inattention and BANG!

I don't think making the attachment to the furler a weak link is a good solution overall. The risk of the whole shebang unfurling if the line pulls out is too high, of course it will happen in the worst conditions, 50 knot squall, land to leeward... and unless you have a jedi knight aboard to whisk the sail down into the saillocker in a flash things are about to get fun!

Only solutions I can think of are to have lots of extra wraps and maybe strip the cover, or otherwise mark the furling line at a point where you need to stop winching. I have used electric winches on furlers, its seductively easy, but potentially very dangerous. On a big boat (60 plus foot)with a big genoa, in a decent wind with land to leeward it can sometimes be the only way to get the bastard in quickly. But where possible I now try to run off, and blanket the genoa and pull it in by hand, with a few turns around a winch to control it.

Having studied the loads on the drum due to the furling line pulling at 90 degrees to the stay I can really see the advantages of the electric and hydraulic systems for big boats (provided they have a manual system). These systems put pure torque on the system, no radial load. When the furlex on a big 62 foot charter boat I sail failed due to the lower bearings collapsing it was still easy to turn it by hand with a short stick, but impossible to rotate with the rope.
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Old 14-05-2016, 18:10   #32
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Re: Furling Lines

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I don't reef my jib, don't even have the foam insert in the luff, but I am a 64' boat and yet can furl the jib by hand even in a storm. I don't use a winch.

The line is a 3/8" polyester doublebraid from New England Ropes or Samsom or Yale. I buy from any of these three. The furler is Furlex.


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Yesss, but your a Dutchman with fore arms like Popeye the Sailor, the rest of us need a winch.
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Old 14-05-2016, 21:15   #33
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Re: Furling Lines

Switching down to a 10mm line, from a 12mm line, when using line clutches is asking for trouble, as you won't get anywhere near the grip from them when using the smaller line.
Unless, that is, you rebuild the clutches for the smaller line. And even then, they still won't hold as much load with the smaller line as with the larger one.

Better to mount a small, non-powered winch (or horn cleat), near the powered one, & switch the line over, when done trimming it via power. While only having the clutch hold the momentarily during the transfer. The lines will live a lot longer.

The thoughts & comments on this (current) topic might bear some re-thinking, as IMO, they're a path down a dangerous road:
Furling System
Furling System

Also, one Seriously doesn't want to undersize/understrength their roller furling lines. Especially as they're out in the UV 24/7.
Here's a bit of the math explaining what they can see in terms of loads; but feel free to do/create your own. Preventer Rigging?
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Old 14-05-2016, 21:29   #34
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Re: Furling Lines

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Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
Yesss, but your a Dutchman with fore arms like Popeye the Sailor, the rest of us need a winch.
Did I mention my jib is a 95% hi-aspect blade instead of these 130% balloons you guys have?
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Old 14-05-2016, 22:10   #35
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Re: Furling Lines

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Did I mention my jib is a 95% hi-aspect blade instead of these 130% balloons you guys have?
Ha, yes I figured that, and a bit of the "force" was helping you. Also the ketch rig means a much smaller headsail. Even then I would not want to be trying to muzzle the beast in a strong blow shorthanded.

But I suspect a sail like yours might survive 50 knots with it all set much better than the average genoa on a sloop/cutter, and by not using it partially reefed you minimise the chance of a problem in the first place. :thumbup:
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Old 15-05-2016, 01:30   #36
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Re: Furling Lines

If you always use an electric winch have you considered an electric drum winch and all SS wire? Never heard of it or seen it but it might work.
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Old 15-05-2016, 04:03   #37
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Re: Furling Lines

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Switching down to a 10mm line, from a 12mm line, when using line clutches is asking for trouble, as you won't get anywhere near the grip from them when using the smaller line.
Unless, that is, you rebuild the clutches for the smaller line. And even then, they still won't hold as much load with the smaller line as with the larger one.

Better to mount a small, non-powered winch (or horn cleat), near the powered one, & switch the line over, when done trimming it via power. While only having the clutch hold the momentarily during the transfer. The lines will live a lot longer.

The thoughts & comments on this (current) topic might bear some re-thinking, as IMO, they're a path down a dangerous road:
Furling System
Furling System

Also, one Seriously doesn't want to undersize/understrength their roller furling lines. Especially as they're out in the UV 24/7.
Here's a bit of the math explaining what they can see in terms of loads; but feel free to do/create your own. Preventer Rigging?

Yes, it's important to keep an eye on strength on all parts of the system, like with any rigging. But I'm not sure what "dangerous path" has been expressed by anyone.

My new 10mm furling line (just ordered from my usual rope pusher) will be D2 Racing 78, with break strength of about 6 tons, so stronger than the original one and with much less stretch, while being lighter and much easier to handle.

The clutch is made specifically for 10mm as well as 12mm line, and is rated to 2 tons with 10mm line (just 200kg less than with 12mm so certainly "anywhere near"), but I never rely on the clutch alone to hold the line in strong conditions. I put it around a winch.

Like Jedi, I rarely rarely reef my principle headsail, so the furling line is rarely used for anything but furling the sail, so its stretch and ultimate strength are rarely important. I used Dyneema only because I wanted to downsize the line to give me more room in the drum, and work better in the clutch.
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Old 15-05-2016, 04:07   #38
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Re: Furling Lines

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
If you always use an electric winch have you considered an electric drum winch and all SS wire? Never heard of it or seen it but it might work.
I would just go to an electric furler altogether, like this one:

Furlex E/TD E (Electric) : Seldén Mast AB

Thus getting rid of the furling line completely. A much better solution. Next boat will have this for sure.
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Old 15-05-2016, 04:53   #39
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Re: Furling Lines

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I would just go to an electric furler altogether, like this one:

Furlex E/TD E (Electric) : Seldén Mast AB

Thus getting rid of the furling line completely. A much better solution. Next boat will have this for sure.
You can do what you wish, it's your money. But nothing good ever comes from mounting an electric motor in a damp place like the anchor chain well. Especially, when a hydraulic system can be installed which places the pump in a dry compartment away from moisture.
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Old 15-05-2016, 07:19   #40
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Re: Furling Lines

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You can do what you wish, it's your money. But nothing good ever comes from mounting an electric motor in a damp place like the anchor chain well. Especially, when a hydraulic system can be installed which places the pump in a dry compartment away from moisture.
I like hydraulics and thought a lot about this.

One thing for sure is if you have heavy electrical powered gear -- bow thruster, windlass, then it doesn't make sense to have that and all the cabling etc. and a parallel hydraulic system. Good system architecture would demand harmonizing all this and making it all hydraulic.

Which of course is possible. But it's expensive and has failure points. Friends with a lot of hydraulic gear on board occasionally get a leak and a bilge full of hydraulic fluid.

Quality 24v or 36v electric gear like Selden is extremely reliable and is simpler than a hydraulic system. Water is not an issue with proper planning of the installation and well-waterproofed gear. That was the way I decided to go.
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Old 15-05-2016, 07:53   #41
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Re: Furling Lines

Dockhead, have you thought about sending a piece of the old furling line to the manufacturer? They may not be aware they have a problem and whilst Spencers did the work, they are only re-selling, not an excuse for them but its not their product.

The manufacturer may also have had a duff batch etc, but certainly deserves the opportunity to put things right. To late if you have ordered replacements, but if they did replace spare cordage especially Dyneema then will be used somewhere on board in due course.

Last thought, my Dynema halyards are way more slippery compared to the double braid on board and do creep in the clutches, I think anyway. Not a problem for halyards, but a furling line will be on and off the winch every time. Will 10mm Dyneema grip a small winch properly?

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Old 15-05-2016, 09:00   #42
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Re: Furling Lines

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Dockhead, have you thought about sending a piece of the old furling line to the manufacturer? They may not be aware they have a problem and whilst Spencers did the work, they are only re-selling, not an excuse for them but its not their product.

The manufacturer may also have had a duff batch etc, but certainly deserves the opportunity to put things right. To late if you have ordered replacements, but if they did replace spare cordage especially Dyneema then will be used somewhere on board in due course.

Last thought, my Dynema halyards are way more slippery compared to the double braid on board and do creep in the clutches, I think anyway. Not a problem for halyards, but a furling line will be on and off the winch every time. Will 10mm Dyneema grip a small winch properly?

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I don't have the energy to deal with Spencers or the crap cordage they sold me. I learned my lesson and that's enough.


My experience with modern Dyneema double braid is that it is absolutely not more slippery than poly double braid. The jacket is polyester after all. The bad Dyneema I got is not bad because it's slippery, it's bad because the core is loose inside the cover.

The last batch of Dyneema I got from my new rope guy is absolutely lovely, with tight fitting cover, lovely hand, and plenty of grip. It's more densely packed than the poly double braid I've had so shouldn't swell up like that did. I feel sure it's going to be great. It definitely works fine on all my winches.


In fact the next project will be to change the mainsheet to the same Dyneema one size smaller. The current 16mm poly makes a gigantic and unwieldy bunch of cordage and it doesn't run through the clutches well, and there is lots of friction in the multiple purchase setup. Downsizing it will greatly improve it I think. But not in the budget right now, so that will be for next year I guess.

And that will be about the last piece of plain poly rope on my boat.
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