Furling a Staysail to a Storm Jib Size

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Eleebana

My new boat will have a 36 sq m main, a 54 sq m (135%) genoa & a 15 sq m staysail on a furler which I think is about twice the recommended size for a storm jib.

Who told you that 15 sq m was twice the recommended size for a storm jib? Would you really want a 7.5 sq m storm jib?

What would you use it for? A handkerchief?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Bash

Who told you that 15 sq m was twice the recommended size for a storm jib? Would you really want a 7.5 sq m storm jib?

What would you use it for? A handkerchief?

Seems about right to me, Bash. If the stays'l is 15 sq m, why would you want the storm sail to be much bigger than 7.5?

Cheers,

Jim

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Seems about right to me, Bash. If the stays'l is 15 sq m, why would you want the storm sail to be much bigger than 7.5?

Cheers,

Jim

I think the exercise was if the sail can be furled to use as a storm sail. Once you furl it, it will likely be 7.5 at a point, right?

BTW I subscribe to Bash's point that given the full SA, a 7.5 storm jib sounds smallish - something you would be using perhaps in the upper ranges.

b.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

BTW I subscribe to Bash's point that given the full SA, a 7.5 storm jib sounds smallish - something you would be using perhaps in the upper ranges.

b.

Seems to me that the "upper ranges" are the wind strengths that we are worrying about. The 15 sq m stays'l will take care of the somewhat lower winds, and surely can be reefed down to say 10-11 sq m without too much problem. Thus a 7.5 sq m sail would be a reasonable next step down.

However, as I (and others) have said, removing a furling stays'l under storm conditions, and then bending a storm sail onto a furler is a no-goer.

Cheers,

Jim

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

(...)

However, as I (and others) have said, removing a furling stays'l under storm conditions, and then bending a storm sail onto a furler is a no-goer.

Cheers,

Jim

This is probably the catch - removing even a small furling jib in storm conditions may be both a hard task and a danger.

Thus, if the stay sail has any limitations in shape or design that preclude furling it to extreme weather size, a small storm jib will be a good security - but it would have to be set up before the upper range s()t ;-) hits the fan.

Just free floating thoughts, not fixed opinions. Let's hope we all have the storm sails we need. Let's hope we never need them!

Cheers,
barnie

[CharlesFCook]

This last spring we had a furling line come all the way out of the drum. Turns out it was not attached to the drum correctly and just pulled out. This was a brand new boat. But good thing to check.

[estarzinger]

A couple comments:

1. The ORC recommended sizing for a storm jib is "a storm jib of area not greater than 5% height of the foretriangle squared, with luff maximum length 65% height of the foretriangle". From the main and jib area figures given in the OP I am guessing this would be about 10sqm but we would need to know the "I" measurement to be sure.

2. We prefer NOT to have a fixed furler on the inner stay primarily because we like to unhook the innerstay and bring it back to the mast when coastal sailing upwind. That makes tacking much much more efficient. We use a spectra (dux) stay for coastal work (because it will not bang on the mast when we bring it back) but have still been using a wire one for offshore passages.

We have carried 3 sizes of staysail - a 'big one' which is very useful in 30kts, an ORC size one which we switch to in 40kts, and a tiny 'hurricane size' one which we have never used.

3. There is a rather elegant solution being used on many of the recent singlehanded race boats - with the sails on removable 'code zero' style furlers. You then get the best of all worlds. You can then have both a big staysail and a storm jib, both furling, which you can switch in big winds, or you can have neither up and have good jib tacking. The only drawback is it takes some mast and deck engineering to make it work (the primary challenge is to get enough luff tension).

[Sabbatical II]

Originally Posted by Bash

Who told you that 15 sq m was twice the recommended size for a storm jib? Would you really want a 7.5 sq m storm jib?

What would you use it for? A handkerchief?

Well according to Evnas figures, a 15.24 m mast would work out to be about a 6 sqm storm jib. ( if my maths is correct)

All conributions have been read and I have found it most helpful, thank you. There are two bits of information I probably should have added to the initial post.

1. I don't intend to be sailing to the higher latitudes.
2. The staysail is to be sheeted back to a car on a self tacking track.

Considering all the points, I'm thinking I will get the staysail reinforced at the attatchment points so that it can be used as a storm sail when partly furled. While I acknowledge the advantage of having a removable inner stay, it's not my preference overall. I will also carry a dedicated storm jib which ideally we would try to fit well before it was required. Being a separate sail it also gives me the option of sheeting the storm jib conventionally rather than to the car / track arrangement of the staysail.

As this boat has been two and a half years in build so far and it's only 80% finished I've maybe had too much time to mull over each component option and I'm trying to get it exactly right, if that is possible.

Thanks again for all the help!

Greg

[roverhi]

If you don't furl the staysail, you can reef it just like the main except without the boom. Just have your sailmaker add the clew, tack and reef point grommets and reinforcing patches.

[ozskipper]

i think you will find that a properly made stormsail will be have several advantages over a furled jib ( which will probably work fine for short legs btw). One. The weight of the sail will be heavier- so less chance of it blowing out. Two. The colour will be orange- handy if the poo hits the fan and a chopper is looking for you. Three. The shape will be better- as someone else mentioned, a lee shore could a real mongrel to beat away from with any bagged out headsail. Four. less sail to handle on the foredeck if you have to go 'bare poles'.

But its all subjective of course. If you just sailing around lake maq or to and from pittwater, the cost wouldnt be warranted. But if your heading towards NZ or PNG, it would be worth having one on board.

I took a davidson 55 to NZ many years ago, they took it that seriously that the mast even had a separate track for the tri-sail. The sail lived at the base of the mast, bagged, but permanently attached to its special track. We didnt use it, but it certainly gave us some peice of mind that the right gear was onboard.

[Sabbatical II]

Originally Posted by roverhi

If you don't furl the staysail, you can reef it just like the main except without the boom. Just have your sailmaker add the clew, tack and reef point grommets and reinforcing patches.

Amazing, I've never heard it done on a staysail, but why not?

Thankyou, Greg

[Albro359]

Originally Posted by Eleebana

Amazing, I've never heard it done on a staysail, but why not?

Thankyou, Greg

There are a number of reasons...most important the lesson learned ( but seems not) from the 79 Fastnet that reefed headsails can fill with water in the bulk of the sail in the foot...rip the sail...and then yr really in trouble.

To the other posters...I never sail in less than 36 south but I can tell you in the Pacific, the winds can be strong and the seas big...and again...in those tough conditions there is no way yr going to get a sail out of a foil and raise another in the foil....hank on storm jib is the only safe way to do it.
and yes I have a SEPARATE trysail track on the stbd side of my mast and YES when on passage the trysail is setup ready to go..as is the storm jib (on the removable inner forestay).
You never know what you might meet out there and you need to be prepared for the worst...and it can be worse than you ever thought !

[Albro359]

maybe I should have said "more than 36 south"...depends on the way you look at it...I meant I am always between 0 and 36 south....

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Albro359

There are a number of reasons...most important the lesson learned ( but seems not) from the 79 Fastnet that reefed headsails can fill with water in the bulk of the sail in the foot...rip the sail...and then yr really in trouble.
(...)

Story confirmed. Our boat got badly knocked down while our main was deeply reefed. The bunt got filled and the sail got damaged. AVOID similar mistakes - learn from others' ;-) errors.

b.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Eleebana

Amazing, I've never heard it done on a staysail, but why not?

Thankyou, Greg

Yes, see my post further up. I never actually needed to use it, but did do a test run. One thing to keep in mind... many staysails dont have enough adjustment on the sheeting angle on the deck hardware, so you may need a pendant on the tack to get it right when it's reefed.