From Schooner to Sloop?

[Panope]

Originally Posted by zeehag

silly me . i am partial to the before pix on this one.
the redesign was well done, but the eye, mine, that is, prefers the look of the schooner and her lines.
you did an excellent job of conversion and modernization.
i musta been a sailor in a long gone era with clipper ships and ancient rigging.

You're not silly at all, Zee. The old Schooner rig was wonderful. Classy and certainly a better off-shore rig (I am not going off-shore).

I forgot to mention one other VERY important (to me) reason for the change:

-To shorten L.O.A. (from 43 ft. to 35 ft.) for cheaper harbor/haulout/storage fees.

Steve

[zeehag]

oops that is correct..many places use loa for dock and haul fees. so far i only pay for lod. canadians here pay for waterline length. "cheaters"... hahahahaha
one good reason to not be in cali, as seems all there use loa. ..hahahahaha

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Skaal

Hi grant.
The designer is as far as I know no longer around. The yard didn't do the conversion. The owner did. So not much help to get anywhere.
The only right thing to do would be to have a NA look at it. They just don't come cheap :-(

Neither does buying a screwed up boat that will never sail properly due to an amateur mast repositioning. Schooner main masts are not just typically well back, but often cant aft, too. I would consider this a non-trivial modification that could go wrong in a number of ways and must pass muster, barring a sea test, with both a surveyor and an NA. I mean, if the foremast is gone, do you even have sufficient canvas to move the boat easily under sail? I would imagine, insofar as I can picture this, that it's more a cutter than a sloop, so the way that was accomplished in terms of balance would make a big difference.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Panope

In no particular order of importance:

-To reduce weight aloft in order to offset the weight of the pilothouse addition.
-To remove the mast from the middle of the saloon.
-To reduce the number of rig components. Simplify.
-I like tinkering/experimenting.

Steve

Yeah, Steve, you may have a particular set of skills and a manifested tradition of throughness to "tinker and experiment", to judge from your anchor testing and what I've seen of your mods. Not many in my experience do, and I've made a lot of changes. Not to the extent you have, however!

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by zeehag

oops that is correct..many places use loa for dock and haul fees. so far i only pay for lod. canadians here pay for waterline length. "cheaters"... hahahahaha
one good reason to not be in cali, as seems all there use loa. ..hahahahaha

Seriously? Waterline length? That would make my 42 footer cheaper there than my 34 footer was in Toronto!

[fatherchronica]

While I like the look and protection of the pilothouse. My wife and I just motored from Channel Islands Harbor to Humboldt Bay and spent 6 hours in 45 kt headwinds with what other, bigger boats told us were 14 foot breaking seas, in relative comfort and safety in our pilothouse, and 16 hours behind Cape Mendicino in 45 to 55 kt winds, but I think maybe 6 or 7 foot seas. If there had been even the tiniest sliver of a moon, and we did not see humpbacks heading south during daylight hours it would have been a cakewalk, sort of. Maybe yellow cake uranium, but some sort of cakewalk. Whatever they actually are. I prefer the look of the schooner rig too come to think of it.

[fatherchronica]

My slip fee for what I claim as 40 feet, if you assume my bowsprit is slightly shorter than reality, and you totally ignore my barndoor rudder and Monitor windvane, was over 600 bucks a month in Oxnard, with liveaboard 1/2 the slip fee more, and all I could find in Humboldt was a 50 foot slip for 240 a month. I did not inquire about liveaboard fees, but judging by folks living aboard in tiny, tiny little boats it cannot be too much.

[gjordan]

Back to the conversion! Skall, could you post a photo of the boat. The metal schooners that I have seen from France were very modern designs. Is the boat you are looking at modern or a gaff rig? Who was the original designer? More information will narrow the speculation, although I still would want a MODERN, N.A. to go over it. ______ Grant.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Skaal

Hi everyone.
So this is my frist post here so please be gentle, if it's posted in the wrong place or if I ask some stupid questions.
I'v been looking for the "perfect" boat for a while, and we found a 48' aluminum boat that we are very much interested in. However we are not sure how perfect it is.
The thing is. The boat have been changed from the original as schooner to a sloop.
The boat is on the hard, and in need of some serious love, so there is no chance for taking it out for a test sail.
But how important is the placement of a mast?
When I asked the owner if there have been a NA involved in the calculation of the new mast placement, I got this answer:
When we converted the boat to a sloop the easiest was to weld the chain
plates to a rib (we had 2 position options 80 cm apart)... At that time our
neighbour in the shipyard turned out to be the brother in law of Dudley dix
and he offered us to forward him our plans. Dudley'reply was that both
would work so we ended up choosing the aft position for a bigger fore
triangle.
So here is my questions.
Can it be true that there is no difference if the mast is 80 cm more forward or aft?
I mean your moving the CE main aft or forward!
Headsails still have to be designed and ordered. Can the sailmaker design the jibs so the CE total of the boat is perfect, by calculating where the CE main is?
As we can't take it for a sail to feel it and test for weatherhelm, I'm a bit scared (and un experienced) to go sign the papers. So if you have the answer, please help.
Here is the boat info.
48 feel French build Aluminum.
12000 kilos
Ballast 5000 kilo lead.
Draught 2.25 meters.
Mast height is 20.2 meters above the water line.
Boom length is a bit above 6 meters.

Wow. Long post. Sorry.
Should I run, or could it still sail ok with the correct designed jibs?
Thanks
Lennie.

JMHO, Run! There are many boats out there that are priced needing TLC but are masted to design. Not my grand aunt's cousin is so and so and said it would work? I'm afraid the cost of you getting a professional opinion would cost more than anything saved.

[alansmith]

Really need a naval architect for your correct diagnosis. There are some serious equations to be dealt with. Please do not underestimate the seriousness of the problem. So many things to go wrong with height of mast, center of efforts, sail area, ballast issues....my mind would be swimming in sewage. Good luck and let us know what you decided. Any chance of pics of your mistress on the hard?

[charliehows]

You are in a difficult position – even boats designed by reputable architects can have extremely unexpected handling characteristics – the real work begins when the boat goes in the water. Considering whether to buy the boat on the basis of theoretical opinions on whether the rig is any good is really a no-starter. You start your post saying you are looking for the 'perfect' boat. I'd suggest that if you are even half serious about this you wont even waste your time considering a boat that you cant sea-trial pretty thoroughly. If, however, like most of the rest of us, your 'perfect' boat turns out to be a big fat comfy duck that spends most of its time on a mooring, a circumstance I suspect could be inferred from the fact that you seem to be looking at boats that cant be sea-trialled, you might want to refine your thought process to reflect your desires...

[Fore and Aft]

I am no rocket scientist but using but using Skenes elements of yacht design I managed to work out my centre of effort and lead on my yacht. All you need is a bloody long tape measure to measure you yacht and then do some scale drawings at home. It does not have to be perfect, but if you roughly work out a lead greater than 16% then you might be in trouble?
Ted Brewer Yacht Design
That link above gives you a fair idea of what to do and Skenes has an easy formula for CE.
Trust me if a high school drop out can do it then anyone can.
Cheers

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I am no rocket scientist but using but using Skenes elements of yacht design I managed to work out my centre of effort and lead on my yacht. All you need is a bloody long tape measure to measure you yacht and then do some scale drawings at home. It does not have to be perfect, but if you roughly work out a lead greater than 16% then you might be in trouble?
Ted Brewer Yacht Design
That link above gives you a fair idea of what to do and Skenes has an easy formula for CE.
Trust me if a high school drop out can do it then anyone can.
Cheers

That's a good primer for people to have a basic understanding of terms. It is not however inclusive enough to deem one's self a naval architect. A good read however.

[Cheechako]

As I said earlier:
Assumption #1 : The designer knew what he was doing. (this could be a bad assumption!)
a) If you have the layout of the schooner rig you can find the CE of the sails with that.
b) Now layout the CE of your current sloop design. If they are anywhere close to the same location... dont worry.

Just looking visually at Panope's conversion, my gut says she must have lee helm now if she balanced well before? Lee helm isnt near as noticeable as weather helm though. But some people like that easy helm. I do. Others think it's the end of the world if you dont have weather helm.

[Scout 30]

If the original rig is available I'd want to change back to it.