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Old 27-04-2018, 11:50   #1
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Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

I am working with two relatively short masts.

I am thinking of adding the second 10ft taller mast in mizzen position and it will carry 300ft2 of sail on a gaff and boom.

A lot of the area between the two masts is lost potential sail area.

One solution is called the fisherman's staysail as seen in this Wikipedia page.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherman's_staysail

I do not like this design as there are two sails over lapping and the fisherman has to be either taken completely down or rolled upward onto a roller furler.

Question:

I believe their is an alternative which is a single sail.

The luff runs in the sail track of the main mast. The foot is attached to the boom. The head of this sail is pulled upwards with two halyards.

It would reef down to the boom and the sail would live on the boom when not sailing.


What is this sail called?

Anyone have a photo?

Pros? Cons?
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Old 27-04-2018, 12:28   #2
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

The sail you are describing
Quote:
The luff runs in the sail track of the main mast. The foot is attached to the boom. The head of this sail is pulled upwards with two halyards.

It would reef down to the boom and the sail would live on the boom when not sailing.
sounds like a gaff rigged main sail.


I have a sail on my cat ketch that I call a fisherman or Staysail in which the luff runs from the head of the mizzen down to the deck alongside the main mast. The sheets run will aft of the mizzen. This sail is excellent for deep reaches. It often adds a knot or more to boat speed. Again, not what I think you are looking for, but a great way to add deep reaching capability to a ketch or schooner.
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Old 27-04-2018, 13:03   #3
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

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The sail you are describing sounds like a gaff rigged main sail.


I have a sail on my cat ketch that I call a fisherman or Staysail in which the luff runs from the head of the mizzen down to the deck alongside the main mast. The sheets run will aft of the mizzen. This sail is excellent for deep reaches. It often adds a knot or more to boat speed. Again, not what I think you are looking for, but a great way to add deep reaching capability to a ketch or schooner.
A photo by chance of your rig with sails flying?

I am indeed looking at modifications for windward capabilities without going to a much larger mast and full batton mainsail.

The key difference between the type of sail I am trying to describe is unlike a gaff rigged mainsail, the second halyard is on the mizzen mast. There is no gaff pole in the head and the head is held upward by the halyard from the mizzen.

I believe the main con is the mizzen halyard can't do two things at once. I.E. It cannot hold up the head and allow the peak to sheet out. The head of the sail would be mostly fixed and in line with the center line of the vessel. Fine for upwinding, however not ideal for down winding. This said running is not my concern.

I ran the numbers. If I make the change described, I will go from a 400 ft2 mainsail seen in the photo in my profile to 600 ft2 using sail type ______?_ and 300 ft2 for the gaff rigged mizzen sail.

That is a 225% increase in sail area which should definitely help my windward capabilities.
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Old 27-04-2018, 13:16   #4
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Okay I found a picture of the cat ketch sail plan showing this third sail here. Hoyt Freedom 35 cat ketch archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

I have also found now there is something called a queen and king fisherman.




I am guessing the king fisherman is the upper sail. So it is close to what I envision. The head of this sail is fixed and in line with two masts.

I like this type better than the gaff rig and fisherman I showed in my original post.
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Old 27-04-2018, 13:34   #5
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

I think I am getting closer and just found there are different types of fisherman staysails.

King Fisherman, Queen Fisherman,

In this photo there is the same luff and head I have described, however again they spilt the sails using more of the fisherman staysails used on a cat ketch.

1930 Schooner MISTRESS - Schooner MISTRESS For SaleStaysail Rigged Schooner*HULL CONSTRUCTIONHull type: Full displacement hull, full keel with attached rudder.Hull Material: Fir and mahogany planking treated with red lead and sheathed with six layers
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Old 27-04-2018, 13:40   #6
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

That fisherman in the hoyt rig looks pretty useable to me. A problem for tacking I suppose but you likely dont need the fisherman going to weather right?
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Old 27-04-2018, 14:10   #7
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Okay I found almost the exact sail I am talking about in this photo.



It is loose footed which probably makes it better for down winding. The luff is attached to the main. The head is fixed between main and mizzen.

The sail size is incredible it looks like a large overlapping Genoa.

It is interesting to see there is a boom in this photo but no sail on it.

That must be the boom for the queen fisherman?

Another interesting concept new to me is to attach a sheet from this king fisherman???? to the mizzen boom and then run down to the deck.
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Old 27-04-2018, 14:56   #8
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

What type of schooner do you have? Staysail? Gaff headed? A lot depends on what you are starting with.
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Old 27-04-2018, 16:57   #9
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

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Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
Okay I found almost the exact sail I am talking about in this photo.



It is loose footed which probably makes it better for down winding. The luff is attached to the main. The head is fixed between main and mizzen.

The sail size is incredible it looks like a large overlapping Genoa.

It is interesting to see there is a boom in this photo but no sail on it.

That must be the boom for the queen fisherman?

Another interesting concept new to me is to attach a sheet from this king fisherman???? to the mizzen boom and then run down to the deck.


Back in 1963 I learned to sail on a schooner named *Freedom . We called that sail a gollywhopper. To my mind its like a spinnaker
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Old 27-04-2018, 18:24   #10
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Gollywobbler is how I've seen it spelled, a Google search will bring up lots of photos and information.
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Old 27-04-2018, 20:35   #11
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

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Gollywobbler is how I've seen it spelled, a Google search will bring up lots of photos and information.
Solved!

Thanks guys it is indeed a gollywobbler and I don't need to reinvent the wheel.

I just need to get one of these because the name is so cool.
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Old 28-04-2018, 05:48   #12
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

That was my damn spell checker because I knew it was gollwobbler. Click image for larger version

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Click image for larger version

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Views:	62
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ID:	168826
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Old 28-04-2018, 06:00   #13
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bill martin View Post
That was my damn spell checker because I knew it was gollwobbler. Attachment 168825
Attachment 168826


Click image for larger version

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ID:	168827
Gollywobbler.
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Old 28-04-2018, 07:24   #14
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

How do you erase or correct mistakes? Is it possible put in links to you tube links?
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Old 28-04-2018, 08:12   #15
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Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

For upwind work I like the sail configuration in the photo in post #4. Splitting the sail area between a fisherman and king fisherman allows to adjust sail area to match conditions and allows that top sail to be tuned for great air flow over the mizzen. I expect this configuration to be very satisfying.

Of course a larger fisherman on a boom could be simpler and set up to reef as needed, but I think the king fisherman provides a way to put a lot of sail area where is can be very productive.

The gollywobbler will be good on reaches, but I am thinking not so great for upwind work.

There is a large cat schooner sailing the southern Chesapeake with a rig similar to the post #4 photo, but without a king fisherman. It may be a Chris White design. The boat is fast.
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