Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-04-2018, 10:16   #16
Registered User
 
hamburking's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kingston Ont Canada
Boat: Looking for my next boat!
Posts: 2,760
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Overlapping sails are very good...you get a slotted effect which gives more power.

I used to sail a brigantine with two masts. We had both a small fisherman and a big fisherman, depending on the conditions. Even the small fisherman was a very powerful sail and was used daily. Yes, its a labour intensive sail which is okay if you have a big crew. Same with the gaff tops'l. Gives you lots of sail options though, so you can always have the right amount of sail for the conditions.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	images.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	7.9 KB
ID:	168856   Click image for larger version

Name:	10464150_10152476808271163_1589869367095925968_n.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	87.9 KB
ID:	168857  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Playfair1 (1).jpg
Views:	64
Size:	56.8 KB
ID:	168858   Click image for larger version

Name:	playfair1.jpg
Views:	56
Size:	145.7 KB
ID:	168859  

__________________

hamburking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2018, 10:33   #17
Registered User
 
Scout 30's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,033
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

We use to have a cat ketch and flew a third sail called a mule.

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/f...h.58934/page-2
__________________

Scout 30 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2018, 10:53   #18
Moderator

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,580
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Quote: "It is interesting to see there is a boom in this photo but no sail on it."

The reason for that is that the gollywobbler is hoisted IN PLACE of the foresail, the gaff for which is taken home BEFORE the gollywobbler is hoisted. The empty boom may also be the club for a club-footed main staysail, though such a sail can be worn together with the gollywobbler.

The gollywobbler is basically a light air reaching sail, and while I've never used one, I would think that on a broad reach it'll be even more intractable than a spinnaker, and, if you muff the handling of it, the effect on the boat will be even more problematic than that of a spinnaker gone feral. It is not likely to be a particularly close-winded sail either, IMO.

A note on terminology since your first post seemed a bit uncertain in that respect: The stumpy mast near the pointy end of the boat is properly called the "foremast", the taller one down towards the blunt end is the "mainmast". If the main stands taller than the fore, you have a schooner. If the two are the same length, you still have a schooner. However, if, in a two-sticker, the forward mast is longer than the after one, you have a ketch or a yawl.

If, in a schooner, the sail between the sticks is set on a gaff you have a "gaff schooner". If the sail set between the mast is triangular and set with its luff on a stay that runs from the foot of the foremast to some point aloft on the mainmast you have a "staysail schooner"

"Gollywobbler" is/was a term that might be applied to anything inordinately big or grotesque. "King" is a prefix than in American English is often used in the same sense as e.g. "king salmon"

I understand that you boat is a trimaran. Given the power of a gollywobbler, and the difficulty in striking it as the wind comes up, I would put some serious thought into how you are going to handle it in practice, and into what the consequences might be if you muff it!

TP
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2018, 11:36   #19
Registered User
 
S/V Alchemy's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Boat: Custom 41' Steel Pilothouse Cutter
Posts: 4,957
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

This thread is giving me great pleasure with its nautical obscurities. Hoist the cro'jack!
__________________
Can't sleep? Read www.alchemy2009.blogspot.com for fast relief. Can't read? Avoid www.volumesofsalt.blogspot.com, because it's just personal reviews of sea books.
S/V Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2018, 12:04   #20
Registered User
 
MartinR's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Sweden, boat in Greece
Boat: 73īULDB custom ketch
Posts: 693
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

I am getting a little confused by the terminology used by the OP. Just so we talk about the same things. On a two masted schooner, the aft mast is the mainmast. The forward mast is the foremast. Normally you carry a (gaff) mainsail on the mainmast. On the foremast you can carry a (gaff) foresail, or you can set the boat up as a staysail schooner as in post 4. There is no mizzen on two-masted schooner.

Do I understand correctly that the boat in question is a trimaran? In this case, why not use a modern square headed full batten foresail instead of all the other options.
MartinR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2018, 14:05   #21
Registered User
 
nwdiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: C&C Landfall 38
Posts: 531
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmaise View Post
Okay I found almost the exact sail I am talking about in this photo.



It is loose footed which probably makes it better for down winding. The luff is attached to the main. The head is fixed between main and mizzen.

The sail size is incredible it looks like a large overlapping Genoa.

It is interesting to see there is a boom in this photo but no sail on it.

That must be the boom for the queen fisherman?

Another interesting concept new to me is to attach a sheet from this king fisherman???? to the mizzen boom and then run down to the deck.


The aft mast is the MAIN MAST, the front mast is the FORE MAST, that is a racing schooner and the fore sail will have been taken with its gaff to deck to fly the gooly which probably was carried in 2-3 sizes...........


Opps looking at it closer it probably has a staysail on the fore boom, which is not being used so the gooly can be used........
nwdiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2018, 14:36   #22
Moderator

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,580
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Uhm, yes... We were all a bit confused, I think, and tried gently to knock the OP's terminology into standard sailorspeak :-).

You, Martin, obviously have an advantage, being in Sweden where you can still find decent Baltic Schooners and, indeed, Baltic Ketches, and the requisite terminology is still, therefore, extant. Now, how one is to understand that terminology, when it is spoken in Swedish, is a whole different question ;-)!

So, now, just to please Alchemy, be kind enuff to give us a brief description of the "galease"-rig.

I have too few years of sailing left by now to make it worthwhile, but I had considered converting TP from her boring, garden variety masthead sloop rig to a PROPER rig, specifically that of a yacht. It has become coutume to refer to any pleasure boat as a "yacht", but that is, as I'm sure you know, wildly inaccurate, indeed, a gross liberty! A yacht is, very specifically, a single masted sailing vessel, gaff-rigged as a cutter or a Galway Hooker is, BUT with a square topsail, set, like any self-respecting square sail, on a yard. And that topsail is the beauty of it. No fuss, no muss, no bother! It makes you run before with considerable authority. It is easy to handle, and it beats those revolting, new-fangled, intractable spinnakers all to hell! The proper name for such a vessel is, if you are one kind of flat-lander, "jacht" and if you are another, "jagt".

TP
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2018, 15:08   #23
Marine Service Provider
 
pbmaise's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Langkawi, Malaysia
Boat: Jay Kantola - Trimaran 65 ft by 40 ft beam
Posts: 665
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparx View Post
For upwind work I like the sail configuration in the photo in post #4. Splitting the sail area between a fisherman and king fisherman allows to adjust sail area to match conditions and allows that top sail to be tuned for great air flow over the mizzen. I expect this configuration to be very satisfying.

Of course a larger fisherman on a boom could be simpler and set up to reef as needed, but I think the king fisherman provides a way to put a lot of sail area where is can be very productive.

The gollywobbler will be good on reaches, but I am thinking not so great for upwind work.

There is a large cat schooner sailing the southern Chesapeake with a rig similar to the post #4 photo, but without a king fisherman. It may be a Chris White design. The boat is fast.
Again I assume in the photo post 4 the lower sail footed on the boom the "queen fisherman". I am just guessing it is also called a stay sail and part of the term stay sail schooner.

Having that lower sail set onto the boom most certainly would allow it to be sheeted flat at the foot and makes it most useable for upwinding which is after all my objective.

The upper sail shown in post four does cover the area aloft which I want to gain after placing the mizzen mast on. So that sail handles part of my objective too and smaller and more manageable than a big overlapping gollywobbler is a selling point.

Shaping the gollywobbler for upwinding will place quite a bit more strain on my rear blocks and block mountings.
pbmaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2018, 16:48   #24
Marine Service Provider
 
pbmaise's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Langkawi, Malaysia
Boat: Jay Kantola - Trimaran 65 ft by 40 ft beam
Posts: 665
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinR View Post
I am getting a little confused by the terminology used by the OP. Just so we talk about the same things. On a two masted schooner, the aft mast is the mainmast. The forward mast is the foremast. Normally you carry a (gaff) mainsail on the mainmast. On the foremast you can carry a (gaff) foresail, or you can set the boat up as a staysail schooner as in post 4. There is no mizzen on two-masted schooner.

Do I understand correctly that the boat in question is a trimaran? In this case, why not use a modern square headed full batten foresail instead of all the other options.
After I add the mainmast and my current mast becomes a foremast, I would have a gaffed foresail behind the foremast. However, the whole purpose of this thread was to figure out the alternative to take the maximum advantage of the total space between the two masts.

I very much appreciated time and patience TP took to explain the correct terminology. It was all done so tactfully that I took zero offense. Further, it was my very objective at the onset to get the correct terminology for this type of sail, and therefore, I should be using the correct terminology on the other parts.

One correction I also noted in my vocabulary is I have been calling sails boom footed instead of club footed.

There are many factors that have led me away from "the modern square headed full batten" mainsail on most multi-hulls.

#1 Most multihulls that fly a full batten mainsail are catamarans and they are mass produced at low cost. Integration of rear structural support for a second mast would greatly increase their cost. Further most larger catamaran cruisers enjoy that big solid aft roof over their heads. If they had a mast there, they would not have that roof.

#2 If you notice the photo of my vessel you will see there is a large area behind my pilot house to place a second mast. Further, my particular trimaran has two sets of structural walls that extend right across the entire vessel. Therefore, unlike a typical multihull, my particular vessel has the room and structural support already in place for a second mast.

#3 The larger the multihull the larger that full batten mainsail. Further, the larger the multihull the wider it is. This is especially true for a trimaran. For comparison, the beam on a Lagoon 620 is only 32ft. The beam on the must more popular and affordable 420 is only 24ft. This trimaran is 40ft wide.

#4 The area I sail is very different than the area most multihulls sail. Winds tend to be very light and encourage you to fly a lot of canvas. However, winds also can shift both suddenly and violently.

#5 Combining factors #3 and #4 mean on a vessel of this size the likelihood of breaking a stick if you "muff it" are tremendously higher. Have a conversion with cruisers who own big multihulls like mine. You won't hear words like "fun" or "exhilarating". Those are the type of words printed in manufacture brochures. Instead you frequently hear the word "terrified". It is not fun to be going over 20 knots when you know winds can suddenly reach 50 knots before you have a chance to put a reef in a giant mainsail. Besides, setting that reef means standing high off the deck on a ladder or on top of your pilot house.

Here is a good discussion about the Lagoon 620 being unsafe at any speed.
Now remember when reading the article they are talking about a smaller and narrower vessel. Load and forces on my 65ft wide trimaran can be greater.

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/l...t-silly.47132/ Admittedly, I chimed in on this thread.

Note: The full batten mainsail terrified the former owners of this vessel for a very good reason. It could have killed them when it came crashing onto the pilot house. When they "muffed it".

#6 Initial cost, and maintenance. Again prices and the amount of maintenance jump the bigger a vessel. Just follow the threads on the cost of track cars. When I purchased my vessel I noted all the times the mainsail was repaired, including when big long battens snapped and broke through the sail.

Combining factors 1-6 yield this multi-hull owner away from that big full batten mainsail.
pbmaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2018, 08:11   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 32
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_5332.jpg
Views:	29
Size:	218.9 KB
ID:	168898

I enlarged the photo. I think itís Marconi sail not gaff. The USNA has a schooner coming out the shop very soon Iíll find the links on YouTube. Westwind something is a double Marconi Schooner.
__________________
Bill Martin
bill martin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2018, 09:00   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 32
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bill martin View Post
Attachment 168898

I enlarged the photo. I think itís Marconi sail not gaff. The USNA has a schooner coming out the shop very soon Iíll find the links on YouTube. Westwind something is a double Marconi Schooner.

https://youtu.be/BM4p7mmFUPw

Link I am still searching for the Sailing view of the double Marconi.
__________________
Bill Martin
bill martin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2018, 18:12   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Boat: Sea Pearl 28 cat ketch
Posts: 135
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

I think there is some confusion here on the terminology of schooners. The aftermost mast on a two-masted schooner is the mainmast. The mast forward of the main (the shorter of the two) is the foremast.
rhubstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2018, 19:16   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 32
Re: Fisherman's staysail on schooner rig alternative?

https://youtu.be/VobC2gNh7qY

This is a link to USNA SummerWind. The double Marconi is just at the beginning. Everything else is yacht salesmanship. I donít care that it has three hot water showers (I am drooling actually ). Interestingly
there is another Summerwind schooner around Philadelphia with Junk sails as in Chinese Junks.
__________________

__________________
Bill Martin
bill martin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail, fish, Fisher

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: Endurance 40' Staysail Schooner Ferro Cement - PROJECT lacey.sail Classifieds Archive 4 16-01-2014 08:12
For Sale: Endurance 47' Staysail Schooner Ferro Cement lacey.sail Classifieds Archive 10 05-01-2014 05:03
Fisherman Sloop Rig TheManWhoSpoke Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 6 15-10-2011 03:39
Cutter Rig: Staysail Setup w32honu Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 6 26-04-2011 13:48
Traveller for staysail - how to rig ? ribbony Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 7 05-03-2009 18:56



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.