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Old 08-12-2013, 00:38   #1
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Endura Braid Classic, splice

The Endura braid classic, a dyneema core with braid cover.


This is a core dependent splice, yes? Why am I finding references to burying the cover?

I did a practice eye splice on the bitter end of my new snubber, came out really good except for a bit of loose cover in the eye( my mistake). But my question is the extra cover left over, some splicing guides say to bury the cover. Even with my beautiful taper job( and it is pretty), I cannot see how I could bury the cover anyways, its very tight. So I trimmed excess cover of and whipped/sewed splice. Again this is the bitter end, so not critical splice.

Anyone run into this with the Endura Braid Classic?
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:10   #2
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

When I first started splicing braided lines, about 35 years ago, I was only aware of a single splicing method for double braid lines. Recently, when I looked on the Sampson website, I found that there are now many different splicing patterns that are each recommended for different lines &/or different applications. I think that my old splice pattern was now relegated for use only on used lines, or something like that. There is more than one way to skin a cat & more than one way to splice a braided line. The Sampson website is a wealth of information.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:18   #3
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

I've just purchased some dyneema core rope for the mainsail halyard,and was intending to use the splice shown on the Samson rope website (core dependent splice.)
In their example, the cover is laid back against the standing part, locked stitched, then covered with a whipping
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:24   #4
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Taper the line just before the end Splicing Guide - Tapering the Cover on High-Tech Ropes

Then do a standard 12 strand amsteel blue taper splice for the eye. Or an integral soft shackle into the core only.

I am pretty convinced that the only reason to buy endurabraid is it makes it very easy to taper and pull the core thru so you have a long tail.
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Old 08-12-2013, 21:48   #5
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Well here is the splice I was writing about. The cover within the eye section is too long, but the core is nice and tight. The long taper turned out "beautiful" says my hubby, he knows how to charm a sailor girl .

It seems the instructions to bury the cover is just for...? Looks?

For the working end of the snubber, the end that attaches to the three strand eye, I'm tempted to peel back the cover, do a proper locked brummel or McDonald brummel with long bury, stitch to secure, then slide the UV cover back to eye, trim excess cover and whip...? Brummel just seems stronger.

Anyways here is the bitter end practice spice.
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Old 08-12-2013, 22:39   #6
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

The locked-brummel splice is certainly easier than a traditional core-dependent splice. The advantage of the core dependent splice is that, in the eye of the splice, the core is protected from both chafe and UV (many of the high strength lines are not particularly UV resistant. I generally go with the traditional core-dependent splice but, instead of burying the cover, I just cut it off and whip it, kinda like you have shown.

In theory both should be equally as strong (I believe that the strength is pretty much dependent on the length of bury and the quality of the taper). In theory the conventional is better for longlevity but meh, the locked brummel is most likely fine too.
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Old 08-12-2013, 23:03   #7
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

For amsteel (including endurabraid) I actually thing the core dependent splice is actually weaker. I do not have testing data on it, but the core is very subject to stress risers and it is difficult to get a proper taper.

The Kevlar and PBO lines almost dissolve in UV, but dyneema/spectra is very resistant to UV damage.

Personally I like lock stitching more, but they are equally strong. I just like to always make the same splice, and there are places where you can't do a brummel.
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Old 09-12-2013, 00:44   #8
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Stumble, is this what you are talking about? A long bury splice with lock stitch?
http://www.pyacht.com/SAM-Tech12-Splice.pdf

Thanks to all for the input.
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Old 09-12-2013, 05:45   #9
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

I wouldn't use a dyneema core rope for a snubber--too little stretch!
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Old 09-12-2013, 06:35   #10
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
I wouldn't use a dyneema core rope for a snubber--too little stretch!
Ziggy is SO right!

However, Dyneema is also the most chafe-resistant rope -- so a good application is to use it through the chocks and put it in series with a nylon snubber. Furthermore, less stretch = less movement, less movement = less chafe.

It's also the most UV-resistant rope (more resistant than the polyester cover) so no need for double braid in this application. The justification for Polyester cover is for running rigging; to give it some "hand" and to enable rope clutches to have some grip on the otherwise slippery fiber.
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Old 09-12-2013, 06:53   #11
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
Brummel just seems stronger..
Just FYI . . . The long bury (properly tapered) is stronger than the brummel (I recently posted a videoed splice test on another thread). The brummel's advantage is that it will not slip at low loads, but stitching the long bury will accomplish the same thing.

I have been told the reason the brummel is weaker, is because it twists the fibers over each other, and like a knot that imposes small bend radiuses to the construction, while the fibers all stay streight in the long bury.

I have spliced this dyneema DB three ways . . . There are some lines where the cover is loose enough to successfully bury it (I have done it successfully with T900), with endura I usually strip the cover way back and do an "exposed" long bury on just the core, or if I want to protect or bulk up the core (I would do this cow hitching two splices to help the bend radius a little) I do the splice without burying the cover, just slide it around and trim and sew/whip/heat shrink.
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Old 09-12-2013, 08:08   #12
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Thank you all for the great advice and info. I'll go with the long bury with stitch.

Ziggy, you are so right about the dyneema, no stretch ( <.6% I think). I'm following Estarzinger's snubber version. I like the idea because it is very chafe resistant, strong, and with little stretch on boat end, it cuts the noisy creaking of the snubber(we sleep right below the bow cleats).
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:40   #13
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post

It's also the most UV-resistant rope (more resistant than the polyester cover) so no need for double braid in this application. The justification for Polyester cover is for running rigging; to give it some "hand" and to enable rope clutches to have some grip on the otherwise slippery fiber.
Regarding UV . . . here is some test data (from my life line study). The red and blue line represent the high and low tested lines (all others were between).

Click image for larger version

Name:	<a title=lifelines.jpg Views: 172 Size: 32.9 KB ID: 71776" style="margin: 2px" />

You can see, that while Spectra/dyneema is relatively UV resistant (compared to other fibers), UV still degrades it quite significantly. While a dacron cover may 'cook' quite quickly from UV, it still protects the internal dyneema/spectra core from this damage. And in any case a dacron cover will carry no load even when new over a high modulus core, so the cover cooking has no effect on the line strength.

In fact New England Ropes has introduced a product designed for life lines that does have a cover (very thin dyneema) that carries no load but protects the load bearing core from chafe and UV.

The life line document has quite a bit on the use of dyneema/spectra lines . . . it is posted on the US Sailing site
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:38   #14
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Ocean,

I don't like that taper splice, but it works. But I have two objections...

1) tapering before doing the bury i think is more difficult. Instead I do the taper after you pull the line thru itself. There is no problem either way, just personal preference.

2) I really think their taper isn't gentle enough. Instead of cutting out six lines I cut 11 of the 12. This given a much more gentle taper and helps to reduce stress risers. So starting at there first taper mark I take one strand, then two down take another, then repeat. This gives a much longer taper without the two bulges like sampsons recomendation, but it does take a little more time.

I was able to snag a set of ceramic surgical shears that are the only thing that actually cuts this stuff easily. A very sharp knife also works.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:59   #15
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Re: Endura Braid Classic, splice

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Regarding UV . . . here is some test data (from my life line study). The red and blue line represent the high and low tested lines (all others were between).

Attachment 71776

You can see, that while Spectra/dyneema is relatively UV resistant (compared to other fibers), UV still degrades it quite significantly. While a dacron cover may 'cook' quite quickly from UV, it still protects the internal dyneema/spectra core from this damage. And in any case a dacron cover will carry no load even when new over a high modulus core, so the cover cooking has no effect on the line strength.

In fact New England Ropes has introduced a product designed for life lines that does have a cover (very thin dyneema) that carries no load but protects the load bearing core from chafe and UV.

The life line document has quite a bit on the use of dyneema/spectra lines . . . it is posted on the US Sailing site
I have looked at the NER stuff, but frankly don't like it. The loss of strength due to the cover seems to be a step backward. And since ORC required the load bearing core to be of the same size as the wire it replaces, I have blunts about the sutability for boats that require or want ORC compliance.

Boat size. Wire size. Wire MBL. Amsteel MBL .....NER wr2....Dux
28'............1/8" wire. 1900lbs ....2,500lbs............1,800........N/A
28-43.......5/32" wire. 2950lbs.....N/A
43'+.........3/16" wire. 4265lbs.....5,400lbs............4,000........9,600 lbs
................1/4"..........................8,600lbs........... .N/A..........13,600lbs

I typically use 1/4" amsteel for all lifelines since there is no good reason not to. And even assuming UV degradation it is still plenty strong. The NER stuff starts out in life much weaker than either the stainless it is designed to replace (which is why I think it may not pass ORC regs), and while it may in time be stronger, that is when new lifelines should be considered anyway.

If I was worried about UV strength degradation I would use Dynex Dux which is almost twice as strong as amsteel for the same size.
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