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Old 28-09-2016, 21:16   #1
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Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

Aloha!

This will be my first post to the forum so I'll start by introducing myself. My name is Ciro, and I just purchased a 1972 Columbia 50' on the island of Kauai. This is the second boat I owned, and the largest, and to be honest...it needs some work. Among many of the tasks at hand, a major priority is going to be replacing the standing rigging. Now, first let me say I am an avid DIY'er. I don't like to pay someone for something I can do especially if it means I will learn a new skill along the way. I am looking forward to replacing my own standing rigging as well as everything else that comes up on the boat.

Now, to the point. I've done quite a bit of research on Dyneema line used for standing rigging. I am not looking for everyones opinions on Dyneema vs 316 SS rigging, but I would like to know a few things from people who have done the switch.

First off, from the research I've done it appears that Dyneema should be sized based on similar stretch characteristics rather than breaking strength. So for example, I have 3/8" (Still need to use a caliper to verify) 316 SS 1x19 for my Upper shrouds and Stays, based on recommendations, this would mean I would need 13mm Dyneema to replace the 3/8" cable. The problem is that I haven't found SK78 Heat set Dyneema in 13mm sizing. New england ropes seems to have the best quality dyneema right now with minimal stretch but they don't have many larger sizes. They do carry the other sizes I will need which I'd have to look at my notes to determine.

What I'm wondering is...

If you have replaced standing rigging with Dyneema, on what size boat was it done, and what were the sizes of your 316 SS, and the size of dyneema you used to replace it with? Also, What company/type of dyneema did you use? (ie Sk75 hsr, sk78 hsr, STS-HSR?)

For me, The thing I like most about Dyneema is how easily manageable it is as far as replacing and doing any future replacements myself. Also, nothing to rust is very appealing to me as I live in the Tropics. I'm aware of Creep and Stretch and that a Dyneema rig will need to be tuned consistantly. Personally, I like that it needs to be tuned regularly because I feel it makes it easier for me to keep an eye on the rigging as well as helping me learn to properly tune my rig. Basically I'm aware of the benefits as well as the downsides of switching, but I would really like to do this for Sloop as I feel it is the best option for my situation.

Some last thoughts...
I am curious if anyone has replaced standing rigging on a vessel as large as mine? I've heard of a few 45' cutter rigged vessels making the swap but nothing this large so far. As well, I am also in need of any advice as far as actually obtaining the sizes of Dyneema I need in a quality that is suitable for my vessels size. So far, I've figured 13mm Dyneema for the stays and upper shrouds (Although I have a furler on the forestay so I suppose I will keep 316 SS there), I believe it was 11mm for the lowers, and 7mm for halyards but I'd have to look at my notes to be sure.

Any suggestions from anyone who has made the swap to Dyneema would be greatly appreciated.

Mahalo,
Ciro
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Old 28-09-2016, 21:57   #2
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

Yes, people do replace standing rigging with Dyneema-based rope, DIY-style. But because of creep, you have to use 'stabilized', pre-stretched version. Colligo Dux made by Colligo Marine is one option. They also manufacture various fittings. You can also contact Brion Toss for advice/guidance, WA, he has done several of such projects.
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Old 28-09-2016, 22:14   #3
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

We considered SS and Dyneema before our recent rerig on our Liberty 458. I have a masters in engineering materials so considered them both purely from an engineering tradeoff.

We went with SS and StaLoks ultimately because the connections were simpler to do ourselves. We also preferred the look of stainless over Dyneema. It's not the most attractive product.

I attempted to obtain batch traceability of the wire and received some info. As to its provenance well that is tbd.

I'm currently running an accelerated corrosion test between the original wire and new wire. I suspect the new wire may not perform as well as the original wire.

Next time round I expect we'll go synthetic. Purely because it's getting very difficult to source good SS wire. Ideally we'd replace the mast with a decent composite replacement and donaway with standing rigging completely.






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Old 28-09-2016, 22:30   #4
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

I am finishing up ours with Colligo dux. Our Kaufman 47 is similar in size and displacement to your Columbia 50. We have a high aspect rig so big stays. 1/2" back, fore, and lowers, 3/8" uppers, intermediates, and inner and babystay are on Redemption. The uppers, intermediate, and babystay are 13mm. The lowers are 14mm and back stay is 16mm. I have new wire for the heads stays for the new roller furlers going on.

John Franta at Colligo is top notch and would help you in any way. Super nice guy and they know their stuff! They do sell just the dynice dux so you can build your own. We had them do ours as we don't have time to diy with everything else going on, but I have spliced it before and it's not hard. They will walk you through the diy and I think they like diy sailors!

(picture: my wife holding all of Redemption's shrouds in her arms the stuff is the bomb, we easily shaved a couple hundred pounds of wire weight from aloft)

Regards,
Ronnie Click image for larger version

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Old 28-09-2016, 22:51   #5
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

To clarify some thing, you size dyneema based on creep not stretch. The real expert on this is John Franta at Colligio Marine and on a large boat I would absolutely suggest contacting him and paying for the design even if you do the work yourself.

The trick is you have to size the line based on predicted static loads, the stretch takes care of itself as does the strength. Usually you wind up one size up from wire, but on a Columbia 50 I wouldn't want to just wing it.

As for line selection, the two recomendations are sk-78 or sk-99. The 99 is stronger which allows a smaller size, but at a much higher cost.
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Old 28-09-2016, 23:09   #6
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
I am finishing up ours with Colligo dux. Our Kaufman 47 is similar in size and displacement to your Columbia 50. We have a high aspect rig so big stays. 1/2" back, fore, and lowers, 3/8" uppers, intermediates, and inner and babystay are on Redemption. The uppers, intermediate, and babystay are 13mm. The lowers are 14mm and back stay is 16mm. I have new wire for the heads stays for the new roller furlers going on.

John Franta at Colligo is top notch and would help you in any way. Super nice guy and they know their stuff! They do sell just the dynice dux so you can build your own. We had them do ours as we don't have time to diy with everything else going on, but I have spliced it before and it's not hard. They will walk you through the diy and I think they like diy sailors!

(picture: my wife holding all of Redemption's shrouds in her arms the stuff is the bomb, we easily shaved a couple hundred pounds of wire weight from aloft)

Regards,
Ronnie Attachment 131983
That's an awesome sight, er, your wife holding the entire standing rig I've got a 47ft cutter that needs new standing rigging. Would you be willing to disclose the price you paid? I figure my 316 replacement is going to run around $5k-$6k. If not, that's cool too. Thanks!
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Old 28-09-2016, 23:26   #7
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

Whoa, just went over to the Colligo site. Pricey. Guess I'll stick with 316.
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Old 29-09-2016, 01:17   #8
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
I am finishing up ours with Colligo dux. Our Kaufman 47 is similar in size and displacement to your Columbia 50. We have a high aspect rig so big stays. 1/2" back, fore, and lowers, 3/8" uppers, intermediates, and inner and babystay are on Redemption. The uppers, intermediate, and babystay are 13mm. The lowers are 14mm and back stay is 16mm. I have new wire for the heads stays for the new roller furlers going on.

John Franta at Colligo is top notch and would help you in any way. Super nice guy and they know their stuff! They do sell just the dynice dux so you can build your own. We had them do ours as we don't have time to diy with everything else going on, but I have spliced it before and it's not hard. They will walk you through the diy and I think they like diy sailors!

(picture: my wife holding all of Redemption's shrouds in her arms the stuff is the bomb, we easily shaved a couple hundred pounds of wire weight from aloft)

Regards,
Ronnie Attachment 131983
It's inspiring to see that this can be done on vessels of my size. Thank you for all the input, from what Ive researched Colligo Dux is heat set sk75 and has slightly more creep than heat set sk78 Dyneema. I have heard of Colligo and will definitely call them soon for some more questions, however, from what I understand, heat set sk78 Dyneema would possibly allow for slightly smaller diameter lines for my vessel which is only intriguing because the price of line is higher for larger diameters. From what I can find though, the only manufacturer I know of is New England ropes, which I believe only come as large as 9 or 11mm (have to check on that again)
I'm interested to know how your final set up process goes. From what I understand there is an initial stage that requires a lot of tuning (maybe the first month). This makes sense, I think of it like a guitar with new strings, first you have to tune it frequently, and then the strings setlle in and tuning stays pretty consistent. This is definitely another advantage of Dyneema. When it starts losing tune more frequently it's time to change the strings again.
If the creep seems manageable I would definitely consider using Colligo dux. I'm also curious what your final cost was for the swap? If you care to share. I'll likely be changing mine in stages.
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Old 29-09-2016, 10:41   #9
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piratelife View Post
It's inspiring to see that this can be done on vessels of my size. Thank you for all the input, from what Ive researched Colligo Dux is heat set sk75 and has slightly more creep than heat set sk78 Dyneema. I have heard of Colligo and will definitely call them soon for some more questions, however, from what I understand, heat set sk78 Dyneema would possibly allow for slightly smaller diameter lines for my vessel which is only intriguing because the price of line is higher for larger diameters. From what I can find though, the only manufacturer I know of is New England ropes, which I believe only come as large as 9 or 11mm (have to check on that again)
I'm interested to know how your final set up process goes. From what I understand there is an initial stage that requires a lot of tuning (maybe the first month). This makes sense, I think of it like a guitar with new strings, first you have to tune it frequently, and then the strings setlle in and tuning stays pretty consistent. This is definitely another advantage of Dyneema. When it starts losing tune more frequently it's time to change the strings again.
If the creep seems manageable I would definitely consider using Colligo dux. I'm also curious what your final cost was for the swap? If you care to share. I'll likely be changing mine in stages.
1) SK-78 is just heat set SK-75.
2) there are a number of manufacturers of sk-78 ropes, the major difference is in the angle of the threads and the distortion from round. Hampjin is the manufacturer of all the underlying Dyneema and have the patent on the material.
3) there are a number of different issues that all come to play when first putting dyneema shrouds to use.

The first is called set, and it is just the physical bedding of the splices against each other. It takes a decent amount of load to do this properly, say 20% of the MBL of the line. Until this is applied the splice hasn't fully formed. So a lot of new installs that are homemade are not actually ready to go until rigging tension is applied, because a lot of home makers don't fully set the splices first. This is a one time thing.

Second, because of its woven nature single braid has a decent amount of mechanical stretch. This is literly the fibers settling against each other as the line is tensioned. Every time the line is removed from service and reinstalled the line has to reset. On a boat that is being moved from regatta to regatta figure it takes about an hour to fully work out this mechanical stretch. In my case I tension the shrouds, go sailing for an hour, then reset the tension, which will remain untouched for the weekend.

4) finally creep. Creep is the permanent elongation of the line over time as a result of being exposed to long duration loads. This is probably the most poorly understood constraint because people have an out sized view of how much creep occurs. Colligio designs to .1"/year. The major factors are the static load of the shrouds, and the strength of the line. But because it will continue forever so long as the static load is the same you have to allow for it in the throw of the turnbuckles. Of course you only need about 1" of throw, since the lifespan of the line is 8-10 years.
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Old 29-09-2016, 10:47   #10
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

When Skylark was rerigged in 2009 after 33 years with the PO's old original rigging, I had Defender duplicate the cables' diameters, swage an eye at what would become the tops of the stays and cap shroud. The idea being that the swages wouldn't fill with water as they are open on the bottom end.

Then we put the old stay and the new stay side by side in a long length of 2" PVC pipe to keep the stays clean and parallel.

Then stays were cut to length and fitted with Sta-Lok eyes.

I paid less that $5000 for 8 stays and shrouds (3/8" and 5/16"), all new Hayns turnbuckles (8) and a Schaefer 2100 roller furler which was 2/5ths of the total price.

When I hear quotes of over $15K for the same job including materials, I am happy that I can do these projects myself.
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Old 29-09-2016, 10:54   #11
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

If people paid 15k to rerig a 36' boat, I'd no longer be retired.
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Old 29-09-2016, 11:06   #12
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

There is a hour long interview of John Franta from Colingo at the following Andy Schell podcast:

153: John Franta on Rigging Tech. €” 59 North, Ltd.
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Old 29-09-2016, 11:18   #13
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

I suspect that bigger yachts with high tension rigs use mast jacks to lift the mast say 4" or so in increase the rig tension for racing and reduce the stretch in between. This would presumably be useful for fibre rigging and is easily done.

I have rod rigging for my 92' mast but am considering changing to fibre. The jacking system would seem imperative.



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Old 29-09-2016, 12:36   #14
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

I changed from 12 mm SS cap shrouds to Marlow 13mm D12 MAX SK99 (Ave BL 24500 kgs) this year on my 42 ft cat. Initial creep as the rope settled in was impressive, but now it's settled it doesn't seem to be moving at all. It does however stretch when under load, such that the lee rigging is slack when beating hard, but the stretch recovers as soon as the load is removed. That doesn't seem to upset the rig however, and I have only now got round to thinking about taking up the slack having taken some in the second day which was in April. That was really just initial creep.

I got trade prices for it, and with that it worked out cheaper than the SS replacements which would have come at non-trade prices.

So for slightly less money, I have a rig which I can tune easily, which doesn't rust and which is much nicer to hold. It weighs a trivial amount as evidenced by that great photo of the lady, and I would never willingly go back to SS now. You have to think a little about it which you never did with SS, but I think it's worth it.
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Old 29-09-2016, 16:43   #15
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Re: Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

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I changed from 12 mm SS cap shrouds to Marlow 13mm D12 MAX SK99 (Ave BL 24500 kgs) this year on my 42 ft cat. Initial creep as the rope settled in was impressive, but now it's settled it doesn't seem to be moving at all. It does however stretch when under load, such that the lee rigging is slack when beating hard, but the stretch recovers as soon as the load is removed. That doesn't seem to upset the rig however, and I have only now got round to thinking about taking up the slack having taken some in the second day which was in April. That was really just initial creep.

I got trade prices for it, and with that it worked out cheaper than the SS replacements which would have come at non-trade prices.

So for slightly less money, I have a rig which I can tune easily, which doesn't rust and which is much nicer to hold. It weighs a trivial amount as evidenced by that great photo of the lady, and I would never willingly go back to SS now. You have to think a little about it which you never did with SS, but I think it's worth it.
That initial set WAS NOT CREEP. It was constructional/mechanical stretch. If you happen to load the shrouds up even higher than they already have you will get a bit more worked out. when first installing dyneema shrouds it's a good idea to first take them far past the working load, then back them off. This locks in the constructional stretch so you won't see it again until you take down the mast.

The one other issue some people run into is that you will need to retune your rigging twice a year if you are somewhere with substantial temprature changes. The thermal dynamics of dyneema mean it elongates differently than an aluminium mast so when it gets cold the shrouds loosen up a little bit. Realistically you want to keep the tuned for temprature and used in temprature within about 40 degrees F. So if you tune your rig for a frostbiting series in New England you need to play with it again before summer sailing season in Florida.
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