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Old 12-01-2016, 03:38   #1
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Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

We're off later this spring on a circumnavigation. and yes we're carrying a lot of spares etc etc. There are, however, two areas that I'm a bit at sea about.

1- our rig. we have 12mm wire for shrouds. No way I can or will carry a spare set of shrouds. So I'm going to get a set made of Dyneema. Does anyone know of any inherent issues with this? It will only be intended to be used as a repair rig, until we can get to some place where we can source real wire.

2- Our rudder quadrant/steering is wires from the quadrant to the wheels. If they break, I'll have to either rig the emergency tiller or use the autopilot and steer using that (lot of electricity being used here). Loss of a wire would mean I can't use our windvane. So I'm thinking that I could carry some Dyneema (in an appropriate size) and a couple of bolts that I could tie the dyneema onto and use that to replace the wire if it breaks. there would obviously be a lot of wear on the dyneema, but none of it is chafe. A spare set of wire is extremely difficult to store, so that idea is out

Has anyone tried this or thought this through? Disadvantages? The dyneema, again, would only be used as a jury rig until wire could be sourced.

thanks for any help
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Old 12-01-2016, 03:55   #2
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

I don't see why you can't carry two spare steering cables which would be something like 2 x 3m of 4mm gal for your boat. Oil them before you leave and store in a plastic supermarket bag.
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Old 12-01-2016, 04:21   #3
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

You can learn everything which you need to know about Dyneema rigging, by having a chat with Colligo Marine. In addition to doing some studying on hear via the header "synthetic rigging". Or, of course, "Colligo".

That said, when using standard Dyneema, there will be a bit of creep as compared to Colligo Marine's shrouds. Even when you pre-stretch them (a mandatory thing, BTW). But likely nothing which couldn't be compensated for with your turnbuckles, over the course of finishing the leg of the passage.

Plus, you have to be watchful for "burn through". Which is when a sheet is let fly, with a bit of load still on it, & it's bearing on (crossing/dragging over) the Dyneema shroud. And the friction of this, structurally damages the shroud material. Up to & possibly melting it, until it's failure point. Hence the term.
But you can put serving onto such shrouds, & or line cover chafe sleeves onto them. To even include purpose designed chafe sleeves made for said application.

Some are Spectra/Dyneema in composition, while others depend on one of, or a combination of several types of aramids, in their makeup. In order to resist such wear.

Ah, & Colligo Marine sells purpose designed end fittings for synthetic rigging. So that you can mate it up with "normal" standing rigging. Sans much fan fare.

Regarding rudder cables. Vectran is more commonly used, as it has little propensity for creep (but they too need pre-stretching). And if you used Spectra, & the cables elongated enough, via creep, before you caught it & tighten the turnbuckles, then they could slip off of the quadrant, and...
But many, many, racing boats have their steering systems designed & built, with Vectran steering cables in mind.

And odds are that Spectra would work, you'd just need to watch things a bit more closely.
Also, with either type of synthetic cables, you'd want to give Everything in the system a Good going over with some fine grit sandpaper, in order to eliminate any burrs, or other abrasion points. Especially if something in there along those lines, might have led to the demise of your metal steering cables.

But then, as already asked. Why not just carry a spare set of standard steering cables? They're flexible, & thus can be coiled up, & tucked away almost anywhere.
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Old 12-01-2016, 05:01   #4
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

So this means the dockspace in front of your house will be vacant for HappyFreeloaders?

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Old 12-01-2016, 05:08   #5
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

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So this means the dockspace in front of your house will be vacant for HappyFreeloaders?

Hi Happy

Well the pier was sold along with the house so you'd have to ask the new owner.

Sigh - I'll never have a house with a private dock 8 meters from my kitchen door again

Having said that - if you are planning to come to copenhagen, give a shout - some of my neighbors don't have boats and could probably be talked into letting you stay there for some nights for a couple bottles of masculine refreshment.

carsten
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Old 12-01-2016, 05:29   #6
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

Holy dupe post cluster huh?

Well.... Never say never... You may have the dockage situation again some day...

I would definitely let you know if (when actually) I head to your home port!
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Old 12-01-2016, 06:00   #7
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

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Holy dupe post cluster huh?

Well.... Never say never... You may have the dockage situation again some day...

I would definitely let you know if (when actually) I head to your home port!
Do that - although I'll be in the carribean next winter and we can see if your mai-tai's that you claim will fix anything can beat my The Botanist gin martinis (oh the fun we can have doing that - and the hangovers!)
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:45   #8
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

Regarding chafe, I've been playing around with some 5mm marlow D12 SK99 . A few short lengths going through the fairleads onto the mooring lines in a marina which can get somewhat bouncy when the winds are blowing. Which is often

It's holding up very well so far, about a month so far. Little touch of what looks like melting but considering the punishment it's had then it's doing very well. Not all dyneema is similar, the d12 is very posh dyeema
D12 Max 99

Great stuff to have onboard, handy for soft shackles, short strops and dead easy to splice, I replace the control lines on a windvane with it recently, should last for ages, though I might need to put a little bit of polyester in there, no stretch at all in the D12 under the loads we would be looking at.
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:28   #9
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

not a very good idea. better to take a spool of wire, wire cutters and norsemen fittings that way you can make up any length wire you want. at a tenth of the price.


synthetics are good but too fragile
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:29   #10
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
We're off later this spring on a circumnavigation.

Well, first a big congratulations. I hope it turns out to be everything you have dreamed.

1- our rig. we have 12mm wire for shrouds. No way I can or will carry a spare set of shrouds. So I'm going to get a set made of Dyneema.

I would not get any "made". Just carry a spare length of dyneema, perhaps 50% longer than your longest wire. You know how to splice it - right? That leaves you maximum flexibility in making a repair. With a rig problem you never know (ahead of time) exactly what broke and what you are going to be working with.

2- Our rudder quadrant/steering is wires from the quadrant to the wheels. If they break

Dyneema is fine. Some testing suggests it will last longer than wire, because it does not bend fatigue. These I would make and fit to exact length and end terminations (you have to check if it can be threaded in place with terminations on both ends - sometimes you have to leave one end unterminated to thread it and then terminate in place). There are some pros and cons with vectran, pbo, and dyneema . . . But dyneema is fine.

Do double check the tension on your steering wires both before your first long passage and then after (they will have stretched). Having them stretch and drop off the quadrant is as common a failure as them actually breaking.


thanks for any help

Don't get all nervous. You will be fine. **** will break. It always does no matter how hard you try to get everything perfect. Don't get flustered when it does. Just fix it up as best you can or continue on without it. Once you get underway, Do your own work as much as possible - it will be significantly better than the hired "pro's" work (that's a hard and expensively learned lesson).
.......
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:45   #11
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

I agree with bsurvey.
Also possibily of using a Length of 7x19 wire of longest stay.
Bulldog grips and thimbles for a speedy repair.
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Old 12-01-2016, 09:18   #12
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

Have been seeing new Catamarans 50+ ft LOA in the ABC's with Dyneema rigging on masts with 3 and 4 spreaders. I think Dyneema for spares is a lot better than wire. The world is changing all we have to do (old brains) is open our eyes and catch up.
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Old 12-01-2016, 14:03   #13
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
We're off later this spring on a circumnavigation. and yes we're carrying a lot of spares etc etc. There are, however, two areas that I'm a bit at sea about.

1- our rig. we have 12mm wire for shrouds. No way I can or will carry a spare set of shrouds. So I'm going to get a set made of Dyneema. Does anyone know of any inherent issues with this? It will only be intended to be used as a repair rig, until we can get to some place where we can source real wire.

2- Our rudder quadrant/steering is wires from the quadrant to the wheels. If they break, I'll have to either rig the emergency tiller or use the autopilot and steer using that (lot of electricity being used here). Loss of a wire would mean I can't use our windvane. So I'm thinking that I could carry some Dyneema (in an appropriate size) and a couple of bolts that I could tie the dyneema onto and use that to replace the wire if it breaks. there would obviously be a lot of wear on the dyneema, but none of it is chafe. A spare set of wire is extremely difficult to store, so that idea is out

Has anyone tried this or thought this through? Disadvantages? The dyneema, again, would only be used as a jury rig until wire could be sourced.

thanks for any help
Why not carry wire cable in bulk of proper type and diameter and a swaging tool and spare parts ti make up what ever needs to be done coiled wire-rope should not take up a lot of spsce. I get all my stainless fittings,cables, thimbles etc. at Silvr State Wire and Cable in Las Vegas,NV at about 1/3rd of what you would pay at a marine supply. The work they do is certified and has to meet OSCHA specs. I'm sure youi can find a vendor that stocks similar supplies and tools. I purchased 2 stainless for $35 that would have cost $60 each in a marine supply.
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Old 12-01-2016, 16:00   #14
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
You can learn everything which you need to know about Dyneema rigging, by having a chat with Colligo Marine. In addition to doing some studying on hear via the header "synthetic rigging". Or, of course, "Colligo".

That said, when using standard Dyneema, there will be a bit of creep as compared to Colligo Marine's shrouds. Even when you pre-stretch them (a mandatory thing, BTW). But likely nothing which couldn't be compensated for with your turnbuckles, over the course of finishing the leg of the passage.

Plus, you have to be watchful for "burn through". Which is when a sheet is let fly, with a bit of load still on it, & it's bearing on (crossing/dragging over) the Dyneema shroud. And the friction of this, structurally damages the shroud material. Up to & possibly melting it, until it's failure point. Hence the term.
But you can put serving onto such shrouds, & or line cover chafe sleeves onto them. To even include purpose designed chafe sleeves made for said application.

Some are Spectra/Dyneema in composition, while others depend on one of, or a combination of several types of aramids, in their makeup. In order to resist such wear.

Ah, & Colligo Marine sells purpose designed end fittings for synthetic rigging. So that you can mate it up with "normal" standing rigging. Sans much fan fare.

Regarding rudder cables. Vectran is more commonly used, as it has little propensity for creep (but they too need pre-stretching). And if you used Spectra, & the cables elongated enough, via creep, before you caught it & tighten the turnbuckles, then they could slip off of the quadrant, and...
But many, many, racing boats have their steering systems designed & built, with Vectran steering cables in mind.

And odds are that Spectra would work, you'd just need to watch things a bit more closely.
Also, with either type of synthetic cables, you'd want to give Everything in the system a Good going over with some fine grit sandpaper, in order to eliminate any burrs, or other abrasion points. Especially if something in there along those lines, might have led to the demise of your metal steering cables.

But then, as already asked. Why not just carry a spare set of standard steering cables? They're flexible, & thus can be coiled up, & tucked away almost anywhere.


Good Question - Great replyĖ Having broken steering cables a number of times once I had to do a total block to helm rebuild on the way to New Caledonia from Sydney. . I fully understand his concern with wire because of hard spot ware, it seems to break always at the wrong time long trips in heavy weather.

I'm also wondering if a change from wire to Synthetic cable would increase life of steering cables as well as one would have a bigger margin of safety. It is no fun in heavy seas changing frayed wire steering cables in a very cramped space. I like your solution of using Vectran to replace frayed wire I will make up a set for the next time they break as there will always be a next time.

Many Thanks for the helpful reply as Iím also looking to changing my wire rigging to cut weight aloft so I would not need to use water ballast as frequently.
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Old 12-01-2016, 16:46   #15
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Re: Dyneema Rig and Steering Cables?

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Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25 View Post
Also possibily of using a Length of 7x19 wire of longest stay.
Bulldog grips and thimbles for a speedy repair.
Why bother? You're not going to leave a bit of 7 x 19 on there so it will be temporary, dyneema is so much easier to work with, simple to splice, weighs next to nothing. For a temporary emergancy repair in most likely nasty conditions it's streets ahead of swr.
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