dutchmen system.....worth it?

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

Please excuse my ignorance,--but how do you get rid of the vertical guides if you have an above-boom awning and no hard vang?
Extra long topping lift and boom crutch?

You don't - same problem with lazy jacks. Neither the Dutchmen wires or lazy jack lines suspend the weight of the boom for which something else suc as a boom vang is required in every case.

[sailorboy1]

I have read my Dutchman instrutions I don't know how many times now. I just can get it right. I'm more than willing to believe it is an adjustment issue, but how many hours do I need to keep trying it. It does come down and flake well if I help it.

Other than clearing the jack lines my StakPak went up easier (maybe because that boat had a Tides sail track). The Stapak also dropped better, but again maybe because of the track.

But really even though I don't care that much for my Dutchman it doesn't bug me enough to spend money to replace it!

[belizesailor]

Haved used Dutchman in the past. When all is set-up properly, and the sail has develped memory, it works pretty well. What I don't like about it is that modifications (albeit minor) are required to the sail and there are some proprietary (though not complicated) parts involved. And, you have to have a modified sail cover.

I have a stack-pack with lazy jacks -- really like this approach -- dead simple and can be repaired anywhere with basic readily available stuff.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

You don't - same problem with lazy jacks. Neither the Dutchmen wires or lazy jack lines suspend the weight of the boom for which something else suc as a boom vang is required in every case.

While I do have a topping lift rigged to support the boom (and set a limit on downward tension from the sheet), my lazy jacks + stackpack will support the static weight of boom and sail with no problem. They will even support some load from the sheet, but I would not want to put too much tension because something would likely fail (thus the topping lift).

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

You don't - same problem with lazy jacks. Neither the Dutchmen wires or lazy jack lines suspend the weight of the boom for which something else suc as a boom vang is required in every case.

Not so !! My lazy jacks release from 3 sets of sisterhooks on each side of my "stackpack", and stow at the mast, boom goes in a teak crutch, and topping lift unclips from boom to a holding ring on one of my backstays.
My gooseneck slides, so no permanent vang.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

Please excuse my ignorance,--but how do you get rid of the vertical guides if you have an above-boom awning and no hard vang?
Extra long topping lift and boom crutch?

I have stackpak with lazy jacks and my awnings are designed to roll up next to the boom. They attach to the bottom of the stackpak (added strong webbing loops for this). When not in use they are rolled up and secured below the stackpak along this sides of the boom. Works out quite well.

My lazy jacks can be dropped if needed quite easily -- this is often handy for raising the main to reduce the chance of fouling them with the batten ends.

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

I have stackpak with lazy jacks and my awnings are designed to roll up next to the boom. They attach to the bottom of the stackpak (added strong webbing loops for this). When not in use they are rolled up and secured below the stackpak along this sides of the boom. Works out quite well.

My lazy jacks can be dropped if needed quite easily -- this is often handy for raising the main to reduce the chance of fouling them with the batten ends.

I acknowledge that we have strayed a bit from the OPs original request,
But am interested in your awning solution. I could use this idea
What is your material, total width across boat, and how do you support the width of the awnings? Any photos?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

I acknowledge that we have strayed a bit from the OPs original request,
But am interested in your awning solution. I could use this idea
What is your material, total width across boat, and how do you support the width of the awnings? Any photos?

Too avoid prolonged thread drift I will keep it brief:

My awning set-up is dead simple. Rectangle of PVC coated fabric (good stuff and cheap here in Guate) rolled over 1/2" pvc tubing on inboard and outboard ends. Webbing reinforced grommets spaced evenly along the inboard and outboard edges. Inboard end hitched to nylon webbing loops sewn into bottom (boom edge) of stackpak. Outboard end secured to lifelines/stancions when unfurled. To stow roll up using "under handed" roll so that water does not collect in the awning. I found that an awning the full length of the boom could get a bit cumbersome to handle (and catch a lot of wind) so I split each side in two -- now have two smaller awning sections on each side of boom (4 awning sections total).

Will see if I have some pics.

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Too avoid prolonged thread drift I will keep it brief:

My awning set-up is dead simple. Rectangle of PVC coated fabric (good stuff and cheap here in Guate) rolled over 1/2" pvc tubing on inboard and outboard ends. Webbing reinforced grommets spaced evenly along the inboard and outboard edges. Inboard end hitched to nylon webbing loops sewn into bottom (boom edge) of stackpak. Outboard end secured to lifelines/stancions when unfurled. To stow roll up using "under handed" roll so that water does not collect in the awning. I found that an awning the full length of the boom could get a bit cumbersome to handle (and catch a lot of wind) so I split each side in two -- now have two smaller awning sections on each side of boom (4 awning sections total).

Will see if I have some pics.

'
Thank you, may PM you if possible.
Apologies to OP for Hi-jack.

[CnC40sailor]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I understand your reasoning but am reminded of the old adage often stated in different terms that all mean the same thing - no effort, no reward. This really isn't that much work.

The latter statement, is never true with a 40ft boat. Then combine that with a powerful sail plan, it really turns everything into an arduous adventure.

[sy_gilana]

I have seen Dutchmen systems work well and work poorly. Looks like time must be spent tuning it.
We made our own Stack and Pack. Never been better. The biggest advantage is reefing in a storm. Used to take 25 minutes, now about 4 or 5.
To cover the main is a few seconds of work. If you decide to do a stackpack, please let us know there were some mistakes with V1, V2.0 is fantastic. We have the lazy jacks mounted on the spreaders for a wider funnel. The pull must go to the (pvc tube) battens. there must be an outhaul to counter the fwd pull angle of the lazyjacks. the zipper must be in the shade, the zipper flaps must be large. velcro the front end cover as a wrap around the mast. we do not adjust the LJ's at all, and only slack them when we rig the big awning. sometimes in light winds we drop the LJ then the windward side bag half hangs under the boom to make more sail. there are lots of advantages....

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

I have seen Dutchmen systems work well and work poorly. Looks like time must be spent tuning it.
We made our own Stack and Pack. Never been better. The biggest advantage is reefing in a storm. Used to take 25 minutes, now about 4 or 5.
To cover the main is a few seconds of work. If you decide to do a stackpack, please let us know there were some mistakes with V1, V2.0 is fantastic. We have the lazy jacks mounted on the spreaders for a wider funnel. The pull must go to the (pvc tube) battens. there must be an outhaul to counter the fwd pull angle of the lazyjacks. the zipper must be in the shade, the zipper flaps must be large. velcro the front end cover as a wrap around the mast. we do not adjust the LJ's at all, and only slack them when we rig the big awning. sometimes in light winds we drop the LJ then the windward side bag half hangs under the boom to make more sail. there are lots of advantages....

I found the same deficiences to which you allude, and made alterations to the design, as you have.
My earlier descriptive post pretty much supports your findings.

[islandplanet]

Lazy bag, stack pack, whatever you want to call it is a far better solution in my book.
Dutchman requires slide spacing to support their system that won't necessarily be the same kind of spacing a sail designer would normally use. Repetitive flakes in the same spot can weaken the sail. You have to punch a but of holes into a perfectly good sail. It's not inexpensive either. You also need to modify the sail cover for the Dutchman. In some cases we've seen major UV damage happen to a main because those holes for the Dutchman system allowed sunlight to hit the sail.

For someone buying a new main, we can do a lazy bag which includes lazy jacks and all hardware for comparable cost to the Dutchman hardware and labor to install on the sail. So we usually go that route and the customers appreciate they have a sail cover that fits the new sail well.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

we can do a lazy bag which includes lazy jacks and all hardware for comparable cost to the Dutchman hardware and labor to install on the sail. So we usually go that route and the customers appreciate they have a sail cover that fits the new sail well.

Sounds like a commercial bias showing??????????????

Regardless, the holes in a sail cover are WAY to big if anyone really had a problem with UV degredation. We all have our personal preferences but making a declarative statement that one option is superior to all others ("far better") is silly.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Sounds like a commercial bias showing??????????????

Regardless, the holes in a sail cover are WAY to big if anyone really had a problem with UV degredation. We all have our personal preferences but making a declarative statement that one option is superior to all others ("far better") is silly.

Commercial bias? In my book it's called being practical. Why not have a simpler solution that provides both sail handling and a cover?

I just condemned a main on a Catalina 36 last month because the sail cover had worn allowing sun to hit the sail. The Dutchman weedwhacker line had chafed through and opened up enough space to damage the sail. I stuck my finger through the sail pretty easily. So the guy gets to buy a new sail. Okay by me.

Incidentally in my business revenue is revenue. If I was simply trying to make money I'd recommend Dutchman and a sail cover. We'd make more money if we did that. I'm just sharing some honest perspective.

But hey, you're the expert so I'll defer to you on this one.