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Old 27-07-2012, 20:25   #31
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

I've had good results with the Dutchman. I am not thrilled about the holes in the sail... but the reef points have holes as well... No biggie about putting a few zips in a sail cover. Never had any UV damage nor weakness from folds...Sails WILL flake naturally between the slides whether you have a Dutchman or a Frenchman... ''My experience spans about 23 years or so with the Dutchmen as long as anyone out there. I've had Dutchmen on 3 mains and used it off shore to 10's of thousands of miles.

Works fine... easy to reef and stow.

Islandplanet... you sound like a man with an agenda... not a sailor who has real experience with this system.
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Old 27-07-2012, 21:05   #32
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

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Originally Posted by islandplanet View Post

But hey, you're the expert so I'll defer to you on this one.
Thanks.

I'm no expert; just being objective.
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Old 27-07-2012, 21:09   #33
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

I have it, and I love it. I am having new sails made and will ensure that I pay the extra to have them customized to accept the Dutchman. Yes, the folds are not always correct, and require adjustment, but if care is applied when lowering the sail, this can be avoided. To me, it beats picking a sail off the deck, and the system is durable. The only downside, is the extra halyard, once again, to me it is well worth it.
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Old 27-07-2012, 21:15   #34
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

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Originally Posted by defjef View Post
I've had good results with the Dutchman. I am not thrilled about the holes in the sail... but the reef points have holes as well... No biggie about putting a few zips in a sail cover. Never had any UV damage nor weakness from folds...Sails WILL flake naturally between the slides whether you have a Dutchman or a Frenchman... ''My experience spans about 23 years or so with the Dutchmen as long as anyone out there. I've had Dutchmen on 3 mains and used it off shore to 10's of thousands of miles.

Works fine... easy to reef and stow.

Islandplanet... you sound like a man with an agenda... not a sailor who has real experience with this system.
True. I've only had to clean up the messes on customer boats. On my own boats we just use retractable lazy jacks although I'm thinking seriously about the lazy cover. Most sailmakers are not huge fans of the system. I've never met one who installed it on his own boat and that includes ones that sell it. I know a few sailmakers who simply refuse to install it. That includes a good friend with about 35 years of sailmaking experience.
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Old 27-07-2012, 21:17   #35
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

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Originally Posted by TheWatchman View Post
I have it, and I love it. I am having new sails made and will ensure that I pay the extra to have them customized to accept the Dutchman. Yes, the folds are not always correct, and require adjustment, but if care is applied when lowering the sail, this can be avoided. To me, it beats picking a sail off the deck, and the system is durable. The only downside, is the extra halyard, once again, to me it is well worth it.
In the decades I've had had retractable lazy jacks I've yet to pick up a sail off the deck unless I forgot to deploy them. Luckily that only happens when it's dark, I'm tired, and I'm dropping the main because a squall is on the way or we're getting hit by one ;-)
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Old 27-07-2012, 21:24   #36
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

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Originally Posted by Blue Stocking View Post
Never had a Dutchman, but do have a Doyle 2+2 main. A real PITA to flake.
Couldn't justify $2300 for a Doyle stackpack, so designed and made, what I think, is a superior version.
Male/female adjustable straps under the slide mounted, foot boltrope,
1/2" pvc in doubled fabric pockets, with cutouts for 1" figure-8 straps, slid over the pipe, with St Steel sisterhooks to let my lazy jacks go when I need the awning.
Zippered flap 4" wide to close off top, with 1/4 turn fittings on flap around the mast, supported by adjustable height lanyards on the mast.
My boom gooseneck lifts with the main, (with draft downhaul), and auto matically eases topping lift.
What used to be a 45 minutes sail putaway, is now 2 minutes.

Oh yeah, less than $1000 installed, all st steel fitting, sunbrella,--and that GOOD thread.

Any photos? Would love to see how you set it up.
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Old 27-07-2012, 21:34   #37
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

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Originally Posted by sy_gilana View Post
I have seen Dutchmen systems work well and work poorly. Looks like time must be spent tuning it.
We made our own Stack and Pack. Never been better. The biggest advantage is reefing in a storm. Used to take 25 minutes, now about 4 or 5.
To cover the main is a few seconds of work. If you decide to do a stackpack, please let us know there were some mistakes with V1, V2.0 is fantastic. We have the lazy jacks mounted on the spreaders for a wider funnel. The pull must go to the (pvc tube) battens. there must be an outhaul to counter the fwd pull angle of the lazyjacks. the zipper must be in the shade, the zipper flaps must be large. velcro the front end cover as a wrap around the mast. we do not adjust the LJ's at all, and only slack them when we rig the big awning. sometimes in light winds we drop the LJ then the windward side bag half hangs under the boom to make more sail. there are lots of advantages....
Photos? Would love to see how you set these up.
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Old 27-07-2012, 21:39   #38
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

We have had regular lazy jacks which were ok with partial battens, but when we got our new full batten (4) main we went with the e-z jack system. The jacks are pulled to the mast so no issues with the battens getting hung on them when raising the sail, and take 1 minute to deploy from the mast. There is even a feature to deploy them from the cockpit, but we opted out of that.

We have 3 triangles to the boom and when you combine it with the Strong track system we have, when you release the halyard you have to let it down easily or it comes down so hard and fast it clocks the user in the head. One our sail developed " memory folds" it settles on the boom perfectly flaked any time. This is a great advatage as I single hand a lot and I dont necessarily have to wrap the sail ties till I get to the dock.
With EZ tracks you dont have to do any modifications to your sail cover either.

I didnt want the holes in my sails that the Dutchman have.

Lazy Jack System - EZ-JAX
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Old 28-07-2012, 07:48   #39
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

Each system is compromise... it offers some benefits with some *costs*. A stack pack is equivalent to a storm sail and if you get a blow your windage is quite significant... and perhaps your boat will sail more on the anchor... not to mention that it is ugly looking to my eye. Most lazy jacks seem to snag battens too often.

I single hand and find the Dutchman is as good a crew member at the mast assisting me taking the sail down.. and even before it's tied with 2 or 3 sail ties it remains neatly atop the boom. My sail would now drop nicely without the guide lines but would end up allover the deck. Big mains require some management system and I prefer one where when I am sailing I don't have dacron left attached to the rig.

One needs to evaluate each system PERSONALLY if possible with respect to your boat and your sailing needs. Opinions (such as this) are as common at pie holes.... we all have one.
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Old 28-07-2012, 10:40   #40
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

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Originally Posted by defjef View Post
Most lazy jacks seem to snag battens too often.

.
Not if retractable and used properly.
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Old 29-07-2012, 08:35   #41
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by defjef View Post
I've had good results with the Dutchman. I am not thrilled about the holes in the sail... but the reef points have holes as well... No biggie about putting a few zips in a sail cover. Never had any UV damage nor weakness from folds...Sails WILL flake naturally between the slides whether you have a Dutchman or a Frenchman... ''My experience spans about 23 years or so with the Dutchmen as long as anyone out there. I've had Dutchmen on 3 mains and used it off shore to 10's of thousands of miles.

Works fine... easy to reef and stow.
I have had good results with my Dutchman. Easy to reef downwind. Zips and velcro in the sail cover work well to keep the UV out nicely.
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Old 29-07-2012, 09:36   #42
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

I'll keep it short: I love my Dutchman.
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Old 29-07-2012, 10:46   #43
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

I started a thread asking about the Dutchman system a few weeks ago entitled, “Should I be a Dutchman or not.” I had much the same response, which was very helpful since I had never used that system.
My wife and I considered the pros and cons, and came to this conclusion:
1. We don’t want to go forward to raise and lower our main any longer. It is a heavy sail with a 47’ luff.
2. We can’t reach the greater part of the boom because it is over the Bimini, so even zipping up a cover of our present Stack-pack system will be difficult.
3. It is very difficult to lower/reef the sail on a run—as it is on any sail with sliders and battens.
These disadvantages have pointed us towards the Facnor behind-mast roller furling system, which I’m sure also has disadvantages, not least price, but not these three problems for us. Anyway, they are all trade offs.
I now have a Stack-pack and hardly used mainsail for sale, including lazyjacks, if anyone is interested. Go to www.schooner-britannia.com and click on items for sale. When I sell this I will buy the Facnor.
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Old 29-07-2012, 10:54   #44
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

Jolly Roger,

I will warn you, the experiences I have had with the behind the mast systems are all terrible. It's probably the worst piece of sailing gear I have ever dealt with.

And you should be able to zip up your stack pack from the cockpit. With a zipper line, it's one of the things that makes them so nice even compared to lazy jacks.
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Old 29-07-2012, 14:50   #45
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Re: dutchmen system.....worth it?

Stumble, you need to explain more than just saying behind mast systems are “all terrible.”
There are two types of behind mast systems, the open jib type furlers, and enclosed tubes, like Facnor and Hood. If your experience is terrible with both, please elucidate for all our benefits.
Zipping up a sail bag was only one of the dislikes we have. Hauling any big mainsail up and down is no good—at our age that is.
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